New hardware

[Chief bonehead]

Yep.  Competition has gotten nasty here.  Here is only one brief thread that mentions the "stealing".  He was accused of stealing the "elephant horn".    Also somewhere he was accused of taking the credit for something else.

 

D-man left soon later.  He and I interacted a lot prior to that.

 

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/81453-s-ls-nastification/

The majority of his patents are based around the jubilee.....hmmmm

[Chief bonehead]

Travis,

 

You wrote: The smiley faces don't work.  You were more arrogant and insulting in this thread than Al was, even worse you are his tool.  Which is a shame given the length of time you have been on here and the knowledge you have shared on here previous to this, without being arrogant or abusive.  Especially in the  area of reel to reel.  

 

Now he is gone, again.  So I guess the question you probably need to be asking yourself is "am I on their radar?"  Yes, you most certainly are.  Do you care?  Time will tell..  Will you continue to defend Al 's behavior and actions or act as his conduit/proxy?  That is of course up to you.  I  would say that you are probably going to need a serous attitude adjustment if you are planning on continuing that for any significant length of time. 

 

The Dark Side has its perquisites.      

 

Lee

And it's consequences......

[Travis In Austin]

Travis,

You wrote: The smiley faces don't work. You were more arrogant and insulting in this thread than Al was, even worse you are his tool. Which is a shame given the length of time you have been on here and the knowledge you have shared on here previous to this, without being arrogant or abusive. Especially in the area of reel to reel.

Now he is gone, again. So I guess the question you probably need to be asking yourself is "am I on their radar?" Yes, you most certainly are. Do you care? Time will tell.. Will you continue to defend Al 's behavior and actions or act as his conduit/proxy? That is of course up to you. I would say that you are probably going to need a serous attitude adjustment if you are planning on continuing that for any significant length of time.

The Dark Side has its perquisites.

Lee

Really? Well I guess if you like being on their radar, then I guess it does.

[djk]

"The majority of his patents are based around the jubilee.....hmmmm "

 

I see he referenced several Klipsch patents.

 

But in that vein, shouldn't Klipsch have referenced the later version of the JBL Hartsfield horn?

 

https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrB8qHcFTNWR0YARCcunIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTIzZWg0MnF1BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANlYThiYjYxYTE5OTQwOWMzZjg5MGNmZDBhYjhiMjgyYQRncG9zAzY0BGl0A2Jpbmc-?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Djbl%2Bhartsfield%2Bhorn%26fr%3Dyhs-mozilla-003%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26hsimp%3Dyhs-003%26hspart%3Dmozilla%26nost%3D1%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D64&w=400&h=300&imgurl=thumbs4.picclick.com%2Fd%2Fl400%2Fpict%2F310177942907_%2FJBL-Hartsfield-Speaker-Plans-Large-Scale.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpicclick.com%2FJBL-Metregon-C45-Ranger-Speaker-Construction-Plans-large-310636021797.html&size=18.1KB&name=%3Cb%3EJBL%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3EHartsfield%3C%2Fb%3E+Speaker+Plans+Large+Scale&p=jbl+hartsfield+horn&oid=ea8bb61a199409c3f890cfd0ab8b282a&fr2=piv-web&fr=yhs-mozilla-003&tt=%3Cb%3EJBL%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3EHartsfield%3C%2Fb%3E+Speaker+Plans+Large+Scale&b=61∋=21&no=64&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=12urbk9os&sigb=14la18tu2&sigi=12rlkdoa5&sigt=11mm2o1fb&sign=11mm2o1fb&.crumb=ys8LsdGCW6l&fr=yhs-mozilla-003&fr2=piv-web&hsimp=yhs-003&hspart=mozilla

[Deang]

The original Hartsfield and the Jubilee seem to be really different in the way the folding is executed. The only picture that I saw that looked like a Jubilee, looked so much like a Jubilee that it made me wonder if it might not actually be the Jubilee. My eyes aren't good enough to read the notes

Careful Dennis, Roy has been handing out bonehead awards left and right.

[Deang]

It seems that borrowing is pretty common. Dana runs a slightly modified version of the Universal in his loudspeakers. He bought one set from me with an offer of more work, and then I never heard anything more from him. Al and me confronted him about it, and we just ended up letting it go.

http://www.soniphase.com/speakers_CROSSOVER1.html

Greg offers three different sets of crossovers for the Vittora; The beasts that John specifically designed for the loudspeaker, a hacked up version of the Universal, and then a nice build based off of John Albright's DHA2; a first order, constant impedance network.

The DHA2 was designed to have "fixed" attenuation, but like most things around here, it started as one thing, and became another. I wanted a first order electrical filter with adjustable attenuation, and I thought John's DHA2 would be the perfect place to start. So I asked John, "Hey John, do you care if I hack up your network?" He didn't seem to care, as long as I put it back the way I found it. I started by lifting the common connections for the squawker, which is really all you have to do to achieve adjustable attenuation. Some time later, Greg called me asking to use the design, and I said that it wasn't mine to give away, that he should talk to John.

The DHA2 is actually the network that I used to come up with the idea for the network that Al named the "Super AA". For marketing reasons, it later became the "AlkJr". "Marketing reasons" means that the Super AA was absolutely killing the Universal in sales, and Al thought the name, "Super AA" was contributing, and somehow conveying something that was

inaccurate, and I was like, "what, that it sounds better?"

"Smart-***."

'"Uh, sorry. Well, we could call it the "AlkJr." or something lame like that?"

"Smart-***."

"Uh, sorry. Look, people are still going to know what it is, changing the name isn't going to make any difference."

"But we have to stop this! People still think it's the superior network when it's not."

"Well, it does sound better, remember, that's why I wanted to build it."

"Just because people think it sounds better doesn't mean it is. In fact. It's a step back, and people should be aware that it's not as good!!"

"Well I'm not telling them."

"BTW, the Type AA with those lossy Jensen paper in oils are selling pretty good too, sound good too - you should listen to them sometime."

"I don't need to hear them, they measure lousy."

So, moving right along; after Al taught me how to shift the high pass values around for the different loudspeakers, it became the "SuperX" -- "X" signifying the variable for the different way the network could be built to support the different loudspeakers (anything). So, it's both cool and ironic that "Al's way", and both the tweaking of John Albright and myself made it into Greg's Vittora.

Earlier in the thread, I forgot to respond to something that I wanted to and forgot. It was stated that the SuperX only deviated from the Universal by one part. To include the adjustment of the value of another part -- the small coil in the tweeter filter. This is not exactly true. Yes, there is one less part in the midrange section, leaving a single inductor. Al's PCFILT also made a correction in the tweeter filter, a correction to flatten the impedance. However, as we've been discussing, a flat impedance doesn't tell you much about the acoustic response, or guarantee you either superior objective or subjective results.

I don't know if anyone here remembers "Lisa", but she almost drove me out of my mind as I had to endure almost three weeks of constant bitching about the tweeter output. The situation was finally resolved when after much encouragement from everyone on the forum that she buy a set of Al's attenuators. She was not happy, since I had told her at the time of ordering, that it was a drop in replacement. When I started my next run, I also started with some extra parts and some listening. Lisa was right, but I never said anything. It was like a resonance was being excited (ringing), and I simply reverted back to the original value that I had been using initially, and it went away. The tweeter filter is now a straight up 3rd order Butterworth, and it sounds great. I've been doing this for many years now, and haven't had a single complaint. I also do something else a little different, I don't back out the 1mH of inductance of the voice coil from my networks. I still use the 2.5mH just like I always have, where the "other" network is 1.5mH or lower. The lower coil value results in a bass that sounds bloated and slow. It's boomy, and I can't for the life of me understand why others don't immediately hear it. The only explanation I have for it is that people must like it!

Anyways, so when is it "stealing" and when is it harmless imitation. Should we now also send thank you letters to JBL for the swamping resistors we've been using? Speaking of which, several of my last builds of the SuperX have incorporated 20 watt Mundorf swamping resistors based on a strong recommendation from Bob. Yes, I also respect Bob. :-) To the rest of you, the Mills 12 watt non-inductive that I used to use is a very good part, and a much better part than what is normally out there, I wouldn't expect any problems. I only changed the part because Bob deliberately played to my propensity for audio nervosa, so I upgraded the power rating and quality of the part.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Deang

[Chief bonehead]

"The majority of his patents are based around the jubilee.....hmmmm "

 

I see he referenced several Klipsch patents.

 

But in that vein, shouldn't Klipsch have referenced the later version of the JBL Hartsfield horn?

 

https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrB8qHcFTNWR0YARCcunIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTIzZWg0MnF1BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANlYThiYjYxYTE5OTQwOWMzZjg5MGNmZDBhYjhiMjgyYQRncG9zAzY0BGl0A2Jpbmc-?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Djbl%2Bhartsfield%2Bhorn%26fr%3Dyhs-mozilla-003%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26hsimp%3Dyhs-003%26hspart%3Dmozilla%26nost%3D1%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D64&w=400&h=300&imgurl=thumbs4.picclick.com%2Fd%2Fl400%2Fpict%2F310177942907_%2FJBL-Hartsfield-Speaker-Plans-Large-Scale.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpicclick.com%2FJBL-Metregon-C45-Ranger-Speaker-Construction-Plans-large-310636021797.html&size=18.1KB&name=%3Cb%3EJBL%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3EHartsfield%3C%2Fb%3E+Speaker+Plans+Large+Scale&p=jbl+hartsfield+horn&oid=ea8bb61a199409c3f890cfd0ab8b282a&fr2=piv-web&fr=yhs-mozilla-003&tt=%3Cb%3EJBL%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3EHartsfield%3C%2Fb%3E+Speaker+Plans+Large+Scale&b=61∋=21&no=64&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=12urbk9os&sigb=14la18tu2&sigi=12rlkdoa5&sigt=11mm2o1fb&sign=11mm2o1fb&.crumb=ys8LsdGCW6l&fr=yhs-mozilla-003&fr2=piv-web&hsimp=yhs-003&hspart=mozill

 

 

the jub is not patented....you forgot that one tiny fact.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Chief bonehead

[Travis In Austin]

"The majority of his patents are based around the jubilee.....hmmmm "

I see he referenced several Klipsch patents.

But in that vein, shouldn't Klipsch have referenced the later version of the JBL Hartsfield horn?

https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrB8qHcFTNWR0YARCcunIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTIzZWg0MnF1BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZANlYThiYjYxYTE5OTQwOWMzZjg5MGNmZDBhYjhiMjgyYQRncG9zAzY0BGl0A2Jpbmc-?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3Djbl%2Bhartsfield%2Bhorn%26fr%3Dyhs-mozilla-003%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26hsimp%3Dyhs-003%26hspart%3Dmozilla%26nost%3D1%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D64&w=400&h=300&imgurl=thumbs4.picclick.com%2Fd%2Fl400%2Fpict%2F310177942907_%2FJBL-Hartsfield-Speaker-Plans-Large-Scale.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpicclick.com%2FJBL-Metregon-C45-Ranger-Speaker-Construction-Plans-large-310636021797.html&size=18.1KB&name=%3Cb%3EJBL%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3EHartsfield%3C%2Fb%3E+Speaker+Plans+Large+Scale&p=jbl+hartsfield+horn&oid=ea8bb61a199409c3f890cfd0ab8b282a&fr2=piv-web&fr=yhs-mozilla-003&tt=%3Cb%3EJBL%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3EHartsfield%3C%2Fb%3E+Speaker+Plans+Large+Scale&b=61∋=21&no=64&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=12urbk9os&sigb=14la18tu2&sigi=12rlkdoa5&sigt=11mm2o1fb&sign=11mm2o1fb&.crumb=ys8LsdGCW6l&fr=yhs-mozilla-003&fr2=piv-web&hsimp=yhs-003&hspart=mozilla

"Bill Hartsfield was an employee of the U.S. Bureau of Standards in Washington D.C. He had belonged to the same chapter of the AES as Ray Pepe, JBL's Vice President of Marketing when Pepe had lived on the eastern seaboard. Ray was aware of Hartsfield's work in building his own home variant of the Klipschorn as a personal avocation. It was a natural fit that Bill Hartsfield would be called upon to develop JBL's version of a corner horn. He was hired on retainer as a consultant to JBL to develop a corner horn speaker.

The design of the Hartsfield was not terribly innovative. Instead, it was an example of refining a proven concept with an uncompromised approach to design and build quality. (Nonetheless, the Hartsfield design was considered unique enough that a patent was issued in 1957)."

I think it was the other way around, JBL/Hartsfield would have had to have referenced the KHorn and shown the uniqueness of the design, I think they did that, in part, by the drivers they used.

The Jubilee, I suspect, could have easily have been patented as an improvement of PWK's prior art loudspeaker (Khorn) if he had so desired.

Edited October 30, 2015 by dwilawyer

[Travis In Austin]

"Anyways, so when is it "stealing" and when is it harmless imitation. Should we now also send thank you letters to JBL for the swamping resistors we've been using?"

It is stealing if it has IP protection, in the case of "any process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter, or improvement thereof" that protection is a patent. If an XO isn't patented then it isn't stealing if you copy it, If it is patented then it would be a form of stealing if you copy it which is called patent infringement.

The length of a patent, now, is 20 years.

Stealing a name involves copyright protection.

I am not aware how a XO design, if it is not patented, is protected in any way. I am not an IP attorney, and William McD and Jeff know much more about this than I do, I don't know of anything that prevents any of you from copying each other's designs to your heart's content.

Ethics would play into whether people who share information and work on things together from proceeding to build something without permission. That is a moral question, and it is answered by the economic system you happen to reside in. In a capitalist system, if it isn't protected, you are free to try and build something better, faster, more efficient and/or cheaper, and it isn't stealing.

The sending of a thank you letter is absurd. The key to making an unprotected design, like an XO isn't the design you use, it is price, quality and customer service. If a customer says "I really like the sound of X, (wait, better use Y), and he wants this much, what can you do?" The response should be "I think I have something better, but if you insist on that, my build cost would be less/more/about the same, but I can have it for you quicker, or I can do it cheaper, or I can put in better quality parts" or whatever it might be.

[Deang]

Good stuff.

Well, I was being facetious about the letters to JBL of course, I think ideas should be respected as much as possible. I don't believe something should have to need legal protection to be "protected" - people should be civil to one another and respect each other's IP. What I've learned over time however is that if you get an idea, mention it to someone else, who then executes it - you lose. It's especially painful when they won't even give a nod in your general direction. God forbid that someone might find out that you didn't think it all up by your lonesome. So, it gets increasingly difficult to respect the whole of someone's work when you realize that half of it wouldn't even be sitting on the table if you would have kept your mouth shut.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Deang

[Travis In Austin]

Original ideas are so important to this Country that the Founding Fathers put patents in the Constitution and exclusively under Federal jurisdiction.

But the patent system also makes it so you cannot sit on them. RCA, Ampes, Land/Poloriod are extinct. You inovate or die. Edison didn't event the lightbulb, he perfected it and bought up the other light bulb patents.

I know you were being facetious about letters, it would take a lot of letters. I think it is admirable that you respect other's ideas. You are the Jonas Saulk of audio.

For a lot of people it is dog eat dog.

Edited October 30, 2015 by dwilawyer

[djk]

"I think it was the other way around, JBL/Hartsfield would have had to have referenced the KHorn and shown the uniqueness of the design, I think they did that, in part, by the drivers they used."

 

And Klipsch should have referenced Voight.

 

The '57 Hartsfield patent is nothing like a Klipschorn, read it. The Jubilee is like the later Hartsfield, not the earlier one. The earlier one is closer to the Voight.

[Chief bonehead]

"I think it was the other way around, JBL/Hartsfield would have had to have referenced the KHorn and shown the uniqueness of the design, I think they did that, in part, by the drivers they used."

 

And Klipsch should have referenced Voight.

 

The '57 Hartsfield patent is nothing like a Klipschorn, read it. The Jubilee is like the later Hartsfield, not the earlier one. The earlier one is closer to the Voight.

What a bonehead... Klipsch can't win with you. And who should Voight have referenced.....for your info paul was very interested in the work paul voight did. When we started to do tractrix, paul and hunter hunted for horns voight did and we have several voight horns in the klipsch museum. You obviously don't know paul or Paul's klipsch AT ALL.

[Travis In Austin]

"I think it was the other way around, JBL/Hartsfield would have had to have referenced the KHorn and shown the uniqueness of the design, I think they did that, in part, by the drivers they used."

And Klipsch should have referenced Voight.

The '57 Hartsfield patent is nothing like a Klipschorn, read it. The Jubilee is like the later Hartsfield, not the earlier one. The earlier one is closer to the Voight.

I have, I have it. For his patent he had to distinguish his invention from the Khorn, that is how patents work.

He invented an improvement, as claimed in his patent, of a corner horn. His first one rolled off at 10 Khz if memory served.

But you raise an even better point. It is one thing to obtain a patent. It is quite another to be able to successfully patent and put a product into production that is viable and profitable.

The Hartsfield was d/c about '64, about the time the AR would start dominating the market even though they had a patent. JBL branched out intot that technology/design PWK stayed the course.

Likewise, the Jubilee bassbin is nothing like the Hartsfield.

It would be interesting to know what PMK's reaction was to the Hartsfield.

[Chief bonehead]

Paul respected the hartsfield design. He talked fondly about it. I get sick of THOSE who don't respect Paul. If you don't respect Paul then I have no use for you.

[Travis In Austin]

Paul respected the hartsfield design. He talked fondly about it. I get sick of THOSE who don't respect Paul. If you don't respect Paul then I have no use for you.

I unfortunately never got to meet Paul. Everything I know about him, that I consider reliable, I either know from you or Hunter.

Based on that, I admire Paul, but I respect you. So I wonder where that leaves me?

Wait, Paul was a reel to reel guy, so you have to respect that.

Edited October 31, 2015 by dwilawyer

[Travis In Austin]

Paul respected the hartsfield design. He talked fondly about it. I get sick of THOSE who don't respect Paul. If you don't respect Paul then I have no use for you.

Did he think it was a "rip off." A legitimate advancement?

Did it cause him to upgrade the Khorn at all, or did he feel it was no competition?

[Travis In Austin]

Spot the Khorn.

From the Hartsfield patent/JBL patent, see if you can spot the Khorn:

"This convertible audio horn system was invented to meet a very important economic need in the present highfidelity audio equipment market, the need growing out of the fact that the prospective purchaser of a high-fidelity audio system, having limited funds at his disposal, has heretofore been faced with two unsatisfactory alternatives. Either he must purchase a complete high-fidelity system including not only the folded horn cabinet but also including the extremely costly separate highand low-frequency drivers and cross-over networks, or else he must purchase a much less expensive single loud-speaker unit and a different cabinet for use therewith, which cabinet and speaker unit will be a total loss to him when he wishes to graduate from the less expensive system to the more costly complete high-fidelity system.

[Deang]

Roy, let not your heart be troubled. There are plenty of us here that have a very deep respect for PK. Even those with questions, or are skeptical about some things, do so with reverence.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Deang

[nitrofan]

Wow i am not smart enough to understand all of what's being discussed here but i am smart enough to know i will never buy anything from Al based on what has happened in this thread.