John Warren Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 One has already been banned. Mission accomplished! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prerich Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 We don't get the kind of posts from Bob like we used to. Anyone that hasn't noticed that is obtuse. We get about dozen keystrokes a month out of him. When D-man started his own loudspeaker business, he quit posting and disappeared: www.soniphase.com When Panacea Engineering started selling loudspeakers, he quit posting and disappeared: http://panaceaengineering.com/ When Greg of Volti Audio and started selling loudspeakers, he quit posting and disappeared: www.voltiaudio.com And then when Bob started selling loudspeakers, he for the most part quit posting and mostly disappeared: www.critesspeakers.com So, I always wondered if maybe Klipsch sends out a nice letter from their legal department. I don't know, just something I noticed and there might not be a thing to it. Hey, I'll just call him tonight and ask! I think Bob is busy enjoying his grandchildren, he loves them greatly!!!! I think he knows there are things in life more important than internet forums. Over at Bluray.com, one of our best techies has all but disappeared, but he informed me what he's doing...spending more time with his family. Bravo Zulu to anyone doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkytype Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Deano, You wrote, Hey, check it out -- human hearing has a natural dip between 2000 and 5000, and it's a good one too. It looks like John couldn't have picked a better spot for his aberration -- chances are, it's probably not even audible! :-) Are you serious? You are reading the curves bass ackwards. The curves are called "equal loudness" not "frequency response of the human ear". Human hearing doesn't have a "dip", it has a "peak" in the 2-5 kHz range. Click on the show entire loudness curve set then add discussion of curves as annotation. The easiest way to visualize the human ear's "frequency response" is to flip the curves as I've done for you. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 No Lee, I wasn't serious, which is why I thanked Mike "for playing along". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I actually quite enjoy the debate between "vendors" when it's kept civil. I also wish engineers from various companies would debate more too - like back in the 70's when PWK would write articles firing at his competition, which we now learn all sorts of great things from. Can you guys imagine what it'd be like if they had forums back then? Disagreement is not a form of disrespect. And the more flavorful the language, the more entertaining it is for everyone else. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Prerich, I called Bob last night and he just feels like there isn't anything to say that he hasn't already said. I'm starting to feel that way too, but also getting really tired of the stress associated with it. I got into this for the fun, and I'm just not having fun anymore. I think I finally understand why forums like audiokarma have a zero policy on trolling. I do have better things to do than this, and find myself strongly agreeing with Gotover. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 No, disagreement is not disrespect, but the mudslinging and lying is. In my business, we call it "being unprofessional". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 ""I'm not saying the anomaly is "good", but your witch hunt tactics reveal your ignorance of a greater complexity.""""All this talk about high end, yet the dominant turds in the system get completely ignored. Emperor has no clothes and all that shnazz."" Then said..... ""Disagreement is not a form of disrespect. And the more flavorful the language, the more entertaining it is for everyone else."" -------------------------- Bentz, I disagree. Sure somebody got banned here and deserved it but he was really asking for it. You are right....""Disagreement is not a form of disrespect"". I disagree with condescending lanquage when in disagreement. There are many comments on this thread that are not "flavorful". This is why I agree with Gothover and say again to shred this thread except for JW's first post. Now this thread is just a bunch of circling discussions of no end to bring out the worst in folks. Having said this, I don't disagree with any of your technical knowledge as I always enjoy that. Most is over my head. jc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) John wants the thread to stay up (in part) because he feels that it reveals the ignorance of his detractors. I told him that there weren't enough highly technical people left who could fully grasp the import and ramifications of the various points of discussion or arguments. In other words, who is left that can decipher the "plaster tire tracks, foot prints, dog smelling prints ... twenty seven eight-by-ten color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was ... pictures of the approach, the getaway, the northwest corner the southwest corner and that's not to mention the aerial photo(s)." Or something like that. John submitted a lot of data throughout this thread, and onlookers were well behaved, mostly just concerned about the tone of the thread. I slipped a few times, but it's hard not to when you're being stoned for no reason -- it gets old. John did really good until it got beyond stupid, and even then, I don't think he said anything outlandish. Well, there was "that plot", but he was really just trying to lighten things up. I thought Dave recommended locking the thread, and I totally agree with that. I don't think I can agree with deleting most of it though. There is a lot of good data in the thread, and I don't want to see it go away, nor the discussion points, which also contained some good stuff. Tough call. Would it really be that hard to clean it up? Edited November 9, 2015 by Deang 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Lol, indeed. Too funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 So, go ahead and build your favorite network boy genius, and I'll be happy to kick the shit out of it. Haha, that made me smile Dean (and I don't mean that in a condescending way). I'll probably always look like a little boy to you guys, and that's totally fine. I've just learned a crap ton of stuff these years at Shure and have a totally different perspective on all things audio these days. I should probably ask to be sure, but I don't think my professional peers see me as a young whippersnapper, haha. And for the record, I actually don't find pleasure in "drive-by cheap shots and attempts at humiliating people", but I do enjoy pressing the status quo - even if that means ruffling a few feathers. I probably over-stepped a bit here, but I am starting to turn into a jaded old fart audio engineer - I even have the arthritis and back problems to go with it. Surely I'm allowed to be cantankerous on occasion. You guys might be surprised how much these obnoxious conversations carry over into my professional career. I make it a point to explore some of the ways to quantify what everyone is hearing - and the more crazy the idea, the better - maybe one of these days I'll stumble on some fringe idea that carries a ton of merit and changes how we approach everything. The more I learn, and the more I experiment, and measure, etc etc.... the more I realize how complicated these systems are. It's actually why I like audio so much......there is an incredible mountain of competing variables and I really enjoy trying to balance it all at once. It is so incredibly dangerous to over-emphasize a single variable. Usually the wisdom is in knowing how far something can be pushed before it's noticeable (meanwhile gaining improvement is something else that is very noticeable). John made a really good point in a message he sent me, which I'll paraphrase by saying that listening to a system is a great way to experience all of the competing variables. It's probably the best way actually because if it sounds fine, then it doesn't matter how it measures. Measurements are only useful for fixing problems - and I think that's the biggest reason why measurements are meaningless in and of themselves. Audiophiles have been bemoaning that point for years. That's getting a bit off the subject, but the point is that to fully understand how a system would sound without actually hearing it, one would need such a huge mountain of data - and even then, you will learn more about the sound based on the topologies employed versus the measurements themselves (unless you've gotten really good at identifying architectures by the measurements). Over the years I like to think I've taken a very objective / open-minded approach. If nothing else, it's been a conscious effort. Sure, I'll argue something to death on a forum - often defending ideas I don't agree with - because the point of it all is to learn more about a subject. I feel like a lot of this xover stuff has remained stagnant for the last 10 years or so - meanwhile I personally have learned a lot of things, and on a surface level I've realized that you can achieve other benefits without giving up the current recipe. Not everything requires a straight up trade-off, but it's impossible to have these conversations when people are so wrapped up in the refinement of their old ways. Not saying the old ways are inherently bad (and the fact they've remained constant for so long is testament to that), but why not push the envelope? Why is it an issue that better ideas exist? It doesn't change the performance of today's approaches. Btw, my passive xover networks look like a wire Oh, and I would openly welcome any criticism on the shortcomings of the approach. Perhaps you'll even point out something that can be improved, and we'll all be the better for it (and I'm not being sarcastic either). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Btw, my passive xover networks look like a wire That's rich. However, I am sure it can be tweaked. Dave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) Lol. I can't criticize what I don't understand, and like you pointed out -- I would really need to hear it. You've definitely got my attention though. I like the idea of picking some drivers that are relatively linear in their behavior, and then just stringing them together with a handful of parts that complement the sound of the drivers. The networks get out of the way, and then you're one giant leap closer to the music. We've had some simple Type As hooked up for about a week now, and over the weekend, my son, who is just beginning to understand something about the things he's building, asks, "Why does the sound get better when you use less parts?" Hey, I almost wept, seriously, because he got there completely on his own with that one -- just by listening. That was the best post out of you in along time. You've restored my faith in this thread. :-) Edited November 9, 2015 by Deang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill W. Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Hey Dean, What happens when your son starts removing parts from that passive and gets down to 0? Hmmm - time to start exploring actives ???? SORRY Dean, I just couldn't! resist!!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel's wife Posted November 9, 2015 Moderators Share Posted November 9, 2015 This thread is being locked at the original poster''s request. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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