Moderators Travis In Austin Posted November 8, 2015 Moderators Share Posted November 8, 2015 Posting by "proxy" is not allowed on this forum. I'm hoping members are not engaging in this type of activity. Posting of messages between parties, private emails etc are also not allowed. There will be no more verbal/written warnings in this thread. Next step is nine warning points or being banned. It must really suck to be on your "radar". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel's wife Posted November 8, 2015 Moderators Share Posted November 8, 2015 Posting by "proxy" is not allowed on this forum. I'm hoping members are not engaging in this type of activity. Posting of messages between parties, private emails etc are also not allowed. There will be no more verbal/written warnings in this thread. Next step is nine warning points or being banned. It must really suck to be on your "radar". You might say that. I'm just appalled at the behavior of grown men, that I actually consider to be above this type of behavior. I expect this from some women, not men that I consider to be intelligent. It's disappointing to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Hi Christy, what did you mean when you said; "Posting of messages between parties, private emails etc are also not allowed." Yeah, I know, I'm not always the sharpest knife in the drawer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel's wife Posted November 8, 2015 Moderators Share Posted November 8, 2015 To clarify: you are not to post copies, excerpts, or paraphrase private messages, emails or other writings that could be considered private between two or more parties. if I need to expand on this issue I will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 Mike, You wrote, John is the only guy here focusing on the acoustic response. You other three couldn't voice a system to save your life. If the attached plot from John's website is an example of his voicing skills, then, yeah, we three could probably do as well. That response droop is where our hearing is most sensitive and is somehow caused by the horn+driver+network interaction. Here's what John wrote about the response "anomaly", Are the responses perfect? No. Can I eliminate that response anomaly? Yes but it will add to the package and that adder is about $200 to the overall cost. Maybe I'll add it as another network option. FWIW, I've measured a lot of horns including ones made by folks that post on this site. I've also measured the response on networks made by others. From where I'm at, this setup can compete with any of them. Lee But that's my point....you can't deduce the voicing of that system from that one plot. I'm not saying the anomaly is "good", but your witch hunt tactics reveal your ignorance of a greater complexity. All this talk about high end, yet the dominant turds in the system get completely ignored. Emperor has no clothes and all that shnazz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 (edited) I'm sorry, I can't help but laugh: you swear off all forums and get yourself deliberately banned (from all them), return to another, only to get banned again -- all the while generating posts through another person who's willing to post on your behalf. I think I'm going to become a "Message Board Content Editor", a service provided for those who can't post without wigging out. So, now what's up with you Mike (Dr. Who)? You used to be a really decent person, but now you apparently take pleasure in drive-by cheap shots and attempts at humiliating people. I am absolutely on the record with emphasizing the importance of the acoustic response over things like flat or constant impedance. I probably said it at least once in this thread. Seriously, am I to believe that you haven't read a single post of mine on this topic in the over ten years I've been posting, and you don't know my position on this? On "voicing": Any change that you make changes the voicing of the loudspeaker. You can also choose to do nothing, which is what I've basically decided to do. By using PIO and wax paper capacitors, as well as wax impregnated autoformers and coils -- my builds reflect what PWK originally used/wanted. I have this idea that by doing these things, I'm getting them very close to the way Paul Klipsch liked them. I understand perfectly well that because of the collapsing verticals, that there is some beaming. I also know that without the notch filters, there is that huge bell shaped response in the bass (which many actually like), as well as some additional roughness throughout the response. I understand the deficiencies of this approach, and guess what -- I don't care. I've owned just about every Klipsch loudspeaker there is, including the AK-4 Klipschorn and the Jubliee. I know what I like and what I don't, and I build what I like. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate, respect, or understand the other approaches, I do - I think Roy is brilliant - but the simple builds sound great and appeal to the purist/minimalist in me. So, go ahead and build your favorite network boy genius, and I'll be happy to kick the shit out of it. I was rebuilding networks for the Dahlquist DQ-10 before I even touched a Klipsch network. It's a five way. Some of the drivers are no longer available. There are available mods to deal with this. Some are very good. The ones that are can get expensive. The network is complex, and the speaker is very sensitive to choices in parts. After the first attempt, the second pair sounded a lot better. You telling me that I don't know how to voice a loudspeaker is silly. True, I'm not a loudspeaker designer and probably wouldn't be able to do something from scratch without a lot of help with the math -- but when did I ever claim to be Mr. Wizard? Edited November 9, 2015 by Deang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZEUS121996 Posted November 8, 2015 Share Posted November 8, 2015 The old thread reveals the primary technical point of contention between John and Al, containing the question which was never resolved. I was also trying to help those following the thread by providing some history and relevant information -- I wasn't trying to embarrass Al. You don't need to try and embarrass Al, he and his sock puppet do a great job of it on their own Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) Mike, You wrote, John is the only guy here focusing on the acoustic response. You other three couldn't voice a system to save your life. If the attached plot from John's website is an example of his voicing skills, then, yeah, we three could probably do as well. That response droop is where our hearing is most sensitive and is somehow caused by the horn+driver+network interaction. Here's what John wrote about the response "anomaly", Are the responses perfect? No. Can I eliminate that response anomaly? Yes but it will add to the package and that adder is about $200 to the overall cost. Maybe I'll add it as another network option. FWIW, I've measured a lot of horns including ones made by folks that post on this site. I've also measured the response on networks made by others. From where I'm at, this setup can compete with any of them. Lee anomaly.jpg http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/sound/maxsens.html Hey, check it out -- human hearing has a natural dip between 2000 and 5000, and it's a good one too. It looks like John couldn't have picked a better spot for his aberration -- chances are, it's probably not even audible! :-) Edited November 9, 2015 by Deang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) http://hyperphysics....nd/maxsens.html Hey, check it out -- human hearing has a natural dip between 2000 and 5000, and it's a good one too. It looks like John couldn't have picked a better spot for his aberration -- chances are, it's probably not even audible! :-) Comparison of Apples to Oranges IMO Dean The brain probably adapts(EQs ) for the natural dip. We are very sensitive to level shifts in this region and the broader the dip the more sensitive we will be to it. Edit: I want to add this one plot is just a sample taken at one point in space and by itself is far from enough to begin to describe how the loudspeaker will sound to a listener. miketn Edited November 9, 2015 by mikebse2a3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Posting by "proxy" is not allowed on this forum. I'm hoping members are not engaging in this type of activity. Posting of messages between parties, private emails etc are also not allowed. There will be no more verbal/written warnings in this thread. Next step is nine warning points or being banned. How about kill this thread instead, it is bringing out the worst in several forum members. I think Amy would have killed it by now. This thread is so far off topic, what could it hurt. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Maybe just lock it... it does have a lot of good info too. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 My opinion is the whole thread come down except JW's first post. It has the description and a link to his creation. This is a perfect idea. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Even better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) Posting by "proxy" is not allowed on this forum. I'm hoping members are not engaging in this type of activity. Posting of messages between parties, private emails etc are also not allowed. There will be no more verbal/written warnings in this thread. Next step is nine warning points or being banned. How about kill this thread instead, it is bringing out the worst in several forum members. I think Amy would have killed it by now. This thread is so far off topic, what could it hurt. Dave And that just rewards the misbehavior of forum members who's real goal was to attack John and kill his thread. Here is another option: Since most of what has gone on is about Egotistical Behavior and Vendor Competition maybe stopping vendors from promoting/competing on the forum would be a better answer. Let them promote and answer questions on their own websites..!!! miketn Edited November 9, 2015 by mikebse2a3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 They already do that, but everyone will get fussed at for saying how great their speakers sound with xyz crossovers. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjimbo Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Wow, you guys are really late to the party Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Wow, you guys are really late to the party Been here all along, I just don't get too rankled by all the goings on. I really like most of the xover guys on here, but one hothead really makes me keep quiet. No reason to add fuel to his already explosive nature. I already argued with him over something else. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel's wife Posted November 9, 2015 Moderators Share Posted November 9, 2015 One has already been banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Hehe, that would be the one, ma'am. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 (edited) @Mikebse2a3, thanks for playing along (my crack about the inaudibility of the dip). "I want to add this one plot is just a sample taken at one point in space and by itself is far from enough to begin to describe how the loudspeaker will sound to a listener." I meant to point that out but was so self absorbed that I forgot to mention it. Yes, the off-axis information plays a significant role. Dennis was the first to beat this into my head many years ago. I think he had to beat it in again a few years after that. Edited November 9, 2015 by Deang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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