Marvel Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Roy, let not your heart be troubled. There are plenty of us here that have a very deep respect for PK. Even those with questions, or are skeptical about some things, do so with reverence. I fully agree! Not many with his ability and integrity in this world today. That's what built this company, and personally, I'm glad you are also here working to maintain it. Bruce 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Integrity is probably one of the hardest attributes to maintain, especially when you have a big mouth like I do. It's hard disagreeing with someone without coming off like a pompous *** yourself. Oh well. I do appreciate those words Bruce, they're encouraging, and I need a lot of encouraging. :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Roy as well... You worked with PWK for a substantial length of time and know him better than any of us could ever hope to. What an honor! I am especially glad you are here to carry on his legacy, regardless of how the parent company sees it. They just need to go fishin' more! Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 the jub is not patented....you forgot that one tiny fact. Touche' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeFuddledinMn Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Deang, Good contribution here on the various crossovers. As opposed to John Albright's DHA2 network, I thought Greg Robert's VT 400 network was a simple first order woofer and mid - with no mid band pass, and a second order tweeter filter - specifically designed to let the bms mid roll off naturally and protect the selected beyma tweeter. - BeFuddledInMn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) Did he tell you this, or provide you with a schematic? I see two 40uF capacitors wired in parallel, a Litz coil which has the physical size of the needed .20mH for the first order band pass, and the single 2.2uF for the tweeter. The original design called for a 3.3uF instead of the 2.2uF, along with the autobulb for tweeter protection. When I told Bob C. that I was thinking about using the Zener diodes instead of the autobulb, he suggested that I reduce the tweeter value to 2uF or 2.2uF, to slightly the reduce the energy being delivered to the K-77. The Beyma wouldn't need this additional protection -- so why do we see the 2.2uF on his network, with these ridiculous words: "You will see mention of using these networks with stock Klipsch components, as some of my customers do use these networks in setups other than for what they were designed." "This is the network that I spent a great deal of time developing for my own system, using my own approach to network design." "Several hundred hours of development time, including over a hundred hours of seat time in front of my Khorns ..." I think I built the network below about ten years ago. I then took Al's idea of lifting the common connections for the squawker and added the two jumpers so all of the autoformer settings could be used. I then added the 3rd order tweeter section, and the "Super AA" was born. You actually can't let the BMS roll off like the K-55, it extends out quite a bit further -- it needs at least the single coil. Al of course gets full credit for applying the resistor (swamping resistor) in such a way as to turn the autoformer into a standalone attenuator -- the rest of us just found some interesting iterations on the theme. However, we know where credit goes, to whom, and for what. I hope Greg's rear end didn't get too sore from all of those endless hours of research and development. Edited November 5, 2015 by Deang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 It would be nice to see the brains get over themselves and actually have a technical discussion without all of the off-forum drama bleeding in.. That would require that they actually know what they're talking about... The electro-mechanical-acoustic interaction between the amplifier, speaker, and air is an incredibly complex system. Anytime someone hones in on one variable - whatever it may be - is often completely missing the bigger picture. These complexities, however, are difficult to put into writing and is probably why the real audio engineers rarely discuss these things on the forums....especially with all the self-proclaimed experts running around. When I see such a sparse set of measurements (from all the players here), it tells me one of two things: either the designers are totally unaware of the dominant system variables that they should be controlling, or they were too lazy to post their results. Based on their descriptions and what they state as their focus, I can't help but think it's an issue of ignorance rather than laziness. And ignorance shouldn't be deemed a bad thing - there is so much complexity here that not one person is going to understand all of the variables. What we should be seeing is an open-minded discussion focused on increasing our understanding. Not defending the merits behind our current lack of understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeFuddledinMn Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 Deang, Thanks. It was only a guess on my part, without any input from Greg Roberts. I was intrigued by the look and wondered about the technicals, so I studied the layout top and underside, concluding from the wiring connections that it was wired without a mid band pass, and with a second order tweeter litz inductor. I lean toward the old "A" school of thought, and thought that maybe the VT 400 was a simple variation with adjustable woofer and mid, with a 12db tweeter slope, a variation between an "A" and an "AA" network. In my current setups with Beyma CP25 tweeters, I run a simple "A" tweeter cross with a 2.2uf cap - and they sound good with k-55's dropping off at 6000hz, but I was intrigued by what I thought I saw in Greg's crossover. As far as resistors go, I'm no expert, but it seems that the forum could fill pages under the heading "Resistors - to shunt, or not to shunt." Thanks again for the helpful knowledge. - BeFuddledInMn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 5, 2015 Share Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) Hi Mike, over the years, I think we've managed to gather a good deal of data on all of the different things that people have done here. Both for sale and not. Several of us are in possession of plots and data that we aren't permitted to post. As for John's new top section, there is more data on his website. Over time, he'll probably add waterfalls and some other things. After all of this, I'd kinda just like to hear it. Well. I suppose I get to eat a little crow, The VTK-400 does appear to have a 12dB/octave tweeter filter and there is no band pass filter - the design relies on the mass roll off of the driver. I apologize for not looking closer. The driver doesn't really look to be a good candidate for this kind of design, but without a measurement on the horn it's being used on, there's no way to know. Other than not having a band-pass filter, there doesn't seem to be anything in common with the Klipsch Type A. You make some good points, but seriously, how's your ***? :-) Edited November 5, 2015 by Deang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 " However, we know where credit goes, to whom, and for what."BS, Altec and JBL were doing it before he was even born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeFuddledinMn Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Dean, Thanks for helping clear up the VT 400 configuration. No crow, unless everyone takes a big bite. It's all good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Did he tell you this, or provide you with a schematic? I see two 40uF capacitors wired in parallel, a Litz coil which has the physical size of the needed .20mH for the first order band pass, and the single 2.2uF for the tweeter. The original design called for a 3.3uF instead of the 2.2uF, along with the autobulb for tweeter protection. When I told Bob C. that I was thinking about using the Zener diodes instead of the autobulb, he suggested that I reduce the tweeter value to 2uF or 2.2uF, to slightly the reduce the energy being delivered to the K-77. The Beyma wouldn't need this additional protection -- so why do we see the 2.2uF on his network, with these ridiculous words: "You will see mention of using these networks with stock Klipsch components, as some of my customers do use these networks in setups other than for what they were designed." "This is the network that I spent a great deal of time developing for my own system, using my own approach to network design." "Several hundred hours of development time, including over a hundred hours of seat time in front of my Khorns ..." I think I built the network below about ten years ago. I then took Al's idea of lifting the common connections for the squawker and added the two jumpers so all of the autoformer settings could be used. I then added the 3rd order tweeter section, and the "Super AA" was born. You actually can't let the BMS roll off like the K-55, it extends out quite a bit further -- it needs at least the single coil. Al of course gets full credit for applying the resistor (swamping resistor) in such a way as to turn the autoformer into a standalone attenuator -- the rest of us just found some interesting iterations on the theme. However, we know where credit goes, to whom, and for what. I hope Greg's rear end didn't get too sore from all of those endless hours of research and development. image.jpeg image.jpeg The top network pictured currently resides in my center La Scala! I favored it over Dean's stunning Jensen PIO AA network since it is not as laid back. Nice to see that it is still a favored network. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Dennis, that's true, but it's not like he stole or even borrowed the idea -- he doesn't get points for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Well. I suppose I get to eat a little crow, The VTK-400 does appear to have a 12dB/octave tweeter filter and there is no band pass filter - the design relies on the mass roll off of the driver. I apologize for not looking closer. Lot of wasted crow around here. Good to know that there are a few with enough integrity to have a serving now and again. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarheel Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Well Al Gore invented the internet....that turned out okay 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 Did he tell you this, or provide you with a schematic? I see two 40uF capacitors wired in parallel, a Litz coil which has the physical size of the needed .20mH for the first order band pass, and the single 2.2uF for the tweeter. The original design called for a 3.3uF instead of the 2.2uF, along with the autobulb for tweeter protection. When I told Bob C. that I was thinking about using the Zener diodes instead of the autobulb, he suggested that I reduce the tweeter value to 2uF or 2.2uF, to slightly the reduce the energy being delivered to the K-77. The Beyma wouldn't need this additional protection -- so why do we see the 2.2uF on his network, with these ridiculous words: "You will see mention of using these networks with stock Klipsch components, as some of my customers do use these networks in setups other than for what they were designed." "This is the network that I spent a great deal of time developing for my own system, using my own approach to network design." "Several hundred hours of development time, including over a hundred hours of seat time in front of my Khorns ..." I think I built the network below about ten years ago. I then took Al's idea of lifting the common connections for the squawker and added the two jumpers so all of the autoformer settings could be used. I then added the 3rd order tweeter section, and the "Super AA" was born. You actually can't let the BMS roll off like the K-55, it extends out quite a bit further -- it needs at least the single coil. Al of course gets full credit for applying the resistor (swamping resistor) in such a way as to turn the autoformer into a standalone attenuator -- the rest of us just found some interesting iterations on the theme. However, we know where credit goes, to whom, and for what. I hope Greg's rear end didn't get too sore from all of those endless hours of research and development. image.jpeg image.jpeg The top network pictured currently resides in my center La Scala! I favored it over Dean's stunning Jensen PIO AA network since it is not as laid back. Nice to see that it is still a favored network. If you ever want to sell these, please let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 6, 2015 Share Posted November 6, 2015 There are some in pairs floating around, but Charles just had me build one for his center LaScala. I can see where the additional brightness might be favored for the center channel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkytype Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 Deano, you wrote: I think I built the network below about ten years ago. I then took Al's idea of lifting the common connections for the squawker and added the two jumpers so all of the autoformer settings could be used. I then added the 3rd order tweeter section, and the "Super AA" was born. You actually can't let the BMS roll off like the K-55, it extends out quite a bit further -- it needs at least the single coil. Al of course gets full credit for applying the resistor (swamping resistor) in such a way as to turn the autoformer into a standalone attenuator -- the rest of us just found some interesting iterations on the theme. However, we know where credit goes, to whom, and for what. I'd say the credit should go to the guy who designed the Super AA in the first place. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) I know what happened, he knows what happened. He used the program to adjust the values in the tweeter circuit after I sent him my schematic. You know, I really don't care, it's not important. What is important is that the both of you are running around loose without medication. I wonder if Al remembers why he doesn't have to solder all of those leads to the autoformer anymore? Edited November 7, 2015 by Deang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkytype Posted November 7, 2015 Share Posted November 7, 2015 What is important is that the both of you are running around loose without medication. Deano, I can't vouch for Al, but I've had my daily dose of Steely Dan. How 'bout you? Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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