Jump to content
The Klipsch Audio Community
Chris A

A K-402-Based Full-Range Multiple-Entry Horn

Recommended Posts

9 minutes ago, Chris A said:

I'm not.  Sorry if it came out like that...that wasn't my intent.

 

Accepted. Thank you.

 

Quote

The second part was the answer you gave--which has no value in my world, since commercial cinema/PA isn't of interest to me in what I do.

 

Very good; we have established context. For your purposes -- "living room" use with relatively low power levels -- you generally don't have to worry about physical or thermal limitations of the drivers. But that is a very special situation. And my experience lies in some of the "other" situations.

 

Quote

I do recommend a build (by you) and playing with all the settings to see what occurs--I believe that it will really surprise you what happens (and doesn't happen, too).

 

It very well may. But it is explainable by Physics and Math -- it has to be. It might just require some adjustments to the equations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Edgar said:

you generally don't have to worry about physical or thermal limitations of the drivers. But that is a very special situation. And my experience lies in some of the "other" situations.

Right, I'd guess that probably 50-70% of all loudspeakers made probably never see PA/cinema duty. Instead they sit in the hi-fi listening rooms of consumers. That's the aim of what I'm doing in this thread--exclusively.  So when I take exception to broadened consumer base comments to include very high power levels, perhaps I don't have to say the preceding again...?  I just don't care to use the K-402-MEH design for that kind of duty, and the guys that have built their own also don't appear to have that need either. I'm okay with that and have no real interests in the commercial PA/cinema world--other than just passing curiosity.

 

Danley's closest design to the K-402-MEH is the SH-96 (a point that I've made before), and is completely over-designed for home hi-fi duty, e.g., four 15" woofers, six midranges that I don't use, and a high-duty-cycle 1.4" compression driver...1" in the original lower power version that cost probably 3-6x more than it should for my duty, and introduce other design issues. They also make the thing weight 2x more than it needs to weigh.  I'm not getting any younger, and lifting these to mid-wall locations in-room isn't easy.

 

Tom himself has been saying for at least 14 years that he wants to address the home hi-fi marketplace, but that Mike Hedden (the president and owner of DSL) doesn't really want to go there.  DSL has since moved into the studio monitor business, so I'm watching from afar how that goes (now that the commercial PA business is basically on its rear end--and I hope it turns around within the next few months, etc.).  The Danley Studio monitor is not currently of interest to me for home hi-fi duty, because it loses directivity at a very high frequency (around 1.2 kHz or higher).  The price is also too high.  So they once again are not addressing my needs.  If they did, I'd probably hang up my efforts on the K-402-MEH project to build a better home hi-fi full-range MEH--and look to buy their solution.  But they have produced a product with unique capabilities that I think virtually no one has really been talking about.  I would like to own recordings where the DSL Studio Monitor II was used for mixing/mastering to hear what difference it might make.  I think it will (if the guys doing the mastering also don't crush the mixdown tracks in dynamics to make them 10 dB louder than they should be). 

 

I hope that Tom (and/or Roy, et al.) strays over to this thread from time to time and reads some of the posts here, and that maybe some of them are of interest--which is part of why I posted them. Because I'm basically just a lazy engineer that's retired from his day job--who wants to collect good music recordings and listen to them. 🎶

 

Chris

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Chris A said:

I'd guess that probably 50-70% of all loudspeakers made probably never see PA/cinema duty.

 

Probably not true for horn-loaded loudspeakers, though.

 

We each view the world through our own set of spectacles. Mine color the scenery differently than yours, which in turn color the scenery differently than everyone else's. But we all have to be careful when making general statements that only apply to specific situations. That doesn't make them untrue; it just constrains their truth to the proper context.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Deleted...

Edited by billybob
OT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm always amazed what people don't respond to in this audio forum...and what they do respond to.

 

I wrote a lot more than that subject--which not-so-candidly, I'm not interested in talking about in this thread.  I hope that you guys that do wish to go there--create your own MEH threads addressing PA/cinema duty.  Just remember, there is already a company that produces MEHs for that duty, and has a full line of very good products.  I hope that you're not trying to compete with them...either.  But I can hope for a lot of things--like world peace...

 

Chris

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Chris A said:

I wrote a lot more than that subject--which not-so-candidly, I'm not interested in talking about in this thread. 

 

Now Chris, that's not fair. My original comments regarding physical vs. digital delay alignment, and higher-order crossovers, were posted in another thread. You moved that discussion here to this thread. With all due respect, if that discussion was off-topic for this thread, then you probably should not have moved it here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's move on...

 

I am really excited by what I saw with Ron's K-402-MEHs.  Hopefully he'll chime in with what he's using.  I also know that he's got his own HT thread on that subject.  What I'm interested in is the consistency of the EQ used on all three MEHs to produce good, flat SPL and phase response.  I was especially blown away by the phase flatness--doing essentially nothing to get there.  That's worth talking about. 

 

Perhaps Ron will also talk about his subjective listening here.  Note that we just finished dialing them in for the first time, and there has been no attempts yet to update the exact tilt to the SPL curve to achieve a good fine-tuned balance.  To my knowledge, this is the first time that more than two K-402-MEHs have been in one listening room. 

 

I do hope to see more instances of these amazing MEHs here.  I believe it should be right here--because the common thread is the K-402 horn, which was originally intended for something completely different when designed.

 

Chris

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...

Edited by billybob
OT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately, due to my monetary constraints, I will never get any K-402 horns to modify. In fact, many of the speakers I have were given to me. My heresy IIs were a gift from my oldest son, the LS I own were basically the cabinets when I got them for $100, and filled them with mostly correct components. Having had a pair or complete LS, these are close if not indistinguishable. The MWMs that were given to me have really upped the game. Will certainly go active with them... just not quite happening yet.

 

Chris, don't give up on us. I really really appreciate the work you are putting into this and the help you have given to so many here.

 

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Marvel said:

Unfortunately, due to my monetary constraints, I will never get any K-402 horns to modify. In fact, many of the speakers I have were given to me. My heresy IIs were a gift from my oldest son, the LS I own were basically the cabinets when I got them for $100, and filled them with mostly correct components. Having had a pair or complete LS, these are close if not indistinguishable. The MWMs that were given to me have really upped the game. Will certainly go active with them... just not quite happening yet.

 

Chris, don't give up on us. I really really appreciate the work you are putting into this and the help you have given to so many here.

 

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Bruce, never say never. I follow a lot more threads than I engage in. When I have asked questions I have received helpful advice from you and others. I have noticed that you are always willing to help others and offer advice based on sound principles. I applaud you and find it only fitting to play it forward. I have a extra pair of 402’s. Long story short they are from the Klipsch 1st production run. I replaced them with a new pair last year. One has a crack and one has a spider fracture. Both very much repairable, especially with the skills I’ve seen you display on this forum. I have the original boxes my new ones came in. I’m still new on learning about the physics behind sound, but I’m a darn good packer and fill confident I can get them to you safely. You now own a pair of 402’s. Send me a personal message and we will get the ball rolling. 
Happy New Year !

Jim

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm flabbergasted... will send you a PM tomorrow. Dang, it is tomorrow... when I wake up then... Blessings to all and to all a good night!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am loving the MEHs so much, and I am glad I decided to try them out! I used to have the JBL 2360As with the same horn drivers, and Q Pies, they def do not sound the same. On some songs I get a more raw sound that makes the singer sound like they are in the room. With the JBLs the sound of vocals were more of a polished, warmer sound. The bottom end on the MEHs is a fuller sound and appears to be digging a little deeper too. I have moved the speakers as far in the corners as I can, and I think the bass is even better than when we measured. I am still listening to see if there is any fine tuning that needs to be done other than placement and acoustic panels. Currently the soundstage is wide and some instruments sound like they are right next to me...12' from the rack in front of me. Absolutely awesome sounding.

 

I am wondering if my results might have something to do with the different size ports that we made because we were kr8g8nally goimg to go OB with them...which btw is also a great sounding way to go. Theis even more,spacios, but did not dig down as low,, so I had cabinets made.

 

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We can dial-in the MEHs I think a bit more to get whatever presentation you prefer to hear.  It sounds like your JBLs had more downward tilt on the SPL response -- in order to sound "warm and polished".  That's pretty straightforward to achieve using the Xilica.  Also, if you haven't tried it yet, you can also run your AVP (I would guess it's YPAO) to also put a greater downward SPL tilt, and compare A-B fashion.

_________________________________________________________________

 

I've had a little time for my own setup, and have done more checking on what Dirac Live Full is doing to the sound (based on the Emotiva XMC-1 AVP and my laptop).  Unfortunately, I've found that it, too has real problems handling the measurements taken farther back at the listening positions.  I think it averages something like seven measurements around the listening chairs.  It's sort of weird that it doesn't allow any deviations in the canned positions of the microphone for its measurements. 

 

At any rate, Dirac does a fairly poor job of weaving its way around the room modes with the Jubilees below 210 Hz (the room's Schroeder frequency is about 105 Hz), so this is not good news about any software "automatically" taking measurements from the listening position(s) and doing a credible job.   Dirac actually is creating issues from 90-210 Hz (5-7 dB too low), and creating two more higher frequency nulls: one at ~500 Hz and one at 1000 Hz.  I believe what it is doing is trying to apply FIR filters to smooth the phase response around 300-400 Hz (the lower portion of the crossover frequency between the K-402/TADs and the bass bins), but that's creating more problems than it's solving, creating SPL drop-outs well above the transition frequency.  This is not good news.

 

So all-in-all, this isn't a good track record using "room correction software".  However, I did notice that sound was "warmer" and less bright.  Below you can see the blue trace as the Xilica-based EQ measurement taken at one metre distance in front of the right Jubilee (good SPL response), and the left Jubilee with Dirac correction (orange trace) and the right Jub with Dirac (green trace):

 

2120571203_JubileeSPLResponsewithandwithoutDirac.jpg.ee3a62d3d355d1b7fe68a1d984a96c2b.jpg

 

Dirac is putting approximately triple to quadruple the amount of effective downward tilt on the SPL response--close to -0.8 dB/octave (I currently use about -0.2 dB/octave manually), but with large irregularities introduced to cloud the issue thoroughly, but slightly smoother phase response through the 300-500 Hz band.  A mixed bag. 

 

And I have to completely reset the Emotiva in order to keep it from automatically choosing Dirac settings each time it switches inputs (laptop, PS III with video streaming/Blu-Ray, and playing DSD files from the Oppo).  Each time I switch inputs, it also changes back to the Dirac settings.  Not cool.  And short of resetting the entire unit--no way to turn this "feature" off.

 

So it's not terribly encouraging what Emotiva and Dirac are actually doing.  I believe that I can to a much better job by hand using a -0.5 dB/octave tilt so as not to lose the "tinkles" that the Dirac ends up losing (i.e., a dull sounding setup). 

 

Chris

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually like the more raw vocals sound better...maybe down the road I will like to try a more polished vocals, but for now no. I will have to see if I can dig up my old rew mlp settings for the JBLs to see how they were different with Dirac.

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK Chris, what are the box dimensions for the MEH? I think I will have to find a home form the MWMs, or stick the K-402s on top of them. I will have to ponder this a bit more, and re-read all you've posted.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Jim Gregory said:

Bruce, never say never. I follow a lot more threads than I engage in. When I have asked questions I have received helpful advice from you and others. I have noticed that you are always willing to help others and offer advice based on sound principles. I applaud you and find it only fitting to play it forward. I have a extra pair of 402’s. Long story short they are from the Klipsch 1st production run. I replaced them with a new pair last year. One has a crack and one has a spider fracture. Both very much repairable, especially with the skills I’ve seen you display on this forum. I have the original boxes my new ones came in. I’m still new on learning about the physics behind sound, but I’m a darn good packer and fill confident I can get them to you safely. You now own a pair of 402’s. Send me a personal message and we will get the ball rolling. 
Happy New Year !

Jim

 

 

Not to detract from the thread.....but wow, just wow.

 

(and probably couldn't go to a nicer guy)

 

Looks like 2021 has already gotten off to a fantastic start!! 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Marvel said:

OK Chris, what are the box dimensions for the MEH? I think I will have to find a home form the MWMs, or stick the K-402s on top of them. I will have to ponder this a bit more, and re-read all you've posted.

Here's a cutsheet for a KPT-305 midbass module.  (I think I'm the only one to use this module, and everyone else has rolled their own):

 

023055183_1-e3bea9075a666072b6af2fc352b8

 

Here is a CutList Optimizer layout of the box: KPT-305 box.pdf

 

Note that the panels with the 42.25 dimension are actually trapezoidal, with one edge at 42.25 and the opposing side at 23 inches. There is also an inset frame around the mouth flange of the K-402 that the horn bolts to using T-nut fasteners (four bolts each on the side panels, and two each on the top and bottom of the horn, to match the existing holes in the K-402). It looks like it's routed into the assembled box and glued/stapled to the sides, top and bottom. 

 

Chris

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Chris A said:

Here's a cutsheet for a KPT-305 midbass module.  (I think I'm the only one to use this module, and everyone else has rolled their own):

 

If the shoe fits...

 

Thanks!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Note that it is possible to put a more acute angle on the sides toward the back.  The KPT-305 box was designed, I believe, to match the looks of other members of the MCM family of loudspeaker components, and therefore its shape is a little larger than necessary to accommodate that design pattern:

 

KPT-MCM-Angled-2-THX-new.jpg.a7738b229086d0bb44c4e06ef3d9f556.jpg

 

But you have to watch the clearances from the attached MEH woofers to the box.  You can move the woofers to a top/bottom orientation (thus putting the small disruption of polar coverage at the crossover frequency into the vertical axis of the horn instead of the horizontal.  That would probably make the cabinet a little higher in order to accommodate the MEH woofers on the K-402 and still provide internal clearance inside the box.

 

BTW: the Danley SH-50 box design is actually sort of unique in that there are long Allen head countersunk bolts and Allen head end nuts attaching from the inside of their horns to the outside of the box--significantly strengthening and stiffening the assembly without adding weight, shown below in red color (that I added to the photos):

 

732426832_danleysh50synergyhorns.jpg.f909319141d91eb0127ebda6d8f4d15b.jpg1701728893_danleysh50synergyhornsrearview.jpg.e2e77a82f99c5419a9b76f9a2dcae187.jpg

 

The countersunk bolts don't detract from the acoustic performance of the horn, because they're too small and too far away from the throat. 

 

The woofers in an SH-50 are on the top and bottom of the horn (symmetrical at 50 degrees coverage, but with flat/level top and bottom sides.  It's tight inside the box, however, and they add an extra access port per top and bottom near the front of the box to be removable such that the box can be disassembled/reassembled from the horn without clearance problems with the woofers.  I think they make it so tight so they can array these in side-to-side top-to-bottom bunches for arenas, etc.

 

Chris

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...