Forte II, why so bass shy?

[jjptkd]

Everybody makes mistakes sometimes, I'm sure Mr Crites is not immune to this. It could very well be that your Receiver is just not a good match either but I would not say that it is necessarily under-powered. I've heard a few different $10k+ Mcintosh systems on Chorus II 's and Klipschorns and thought they sounded weak in the lower end, at least compared to what I'm use to and was expecting from those speakers. There is something wrong somewhere and it will be worth it in the long run to figure it all out.

[willland]

I think you are asking too much of your Onkyo TX-NR609(100w/ch AVR wattage) to drive your forte" IIs with authority and send quality bass to a listening position near 17 feet away.  Also, for that listening position, your mains are spaced apart only about 9.5 feet which most likely not provide "accurate" soundstaging for stereo music.

 

Just my take but I may be way off.

 

Bill

[Fjd]

I know it sounds weird, fortes are supposed to have tons of bass. I've tried placing these all over my room, in and out of corners, Crites crossovers, everything nice and sealed up, etc. They just sound a bit anemic.

I'm thinking they need more power. Started out with my HK 430, what's that, 25 watts? Then tried the emotiva mini x with 50 watts. Seems like I should be getting more punch at 65-75 dBs.

So the question is, would more power make these more dynamic? Not that I want them loud, I get the feeling though, as efficient as they are, the woofers need more power to really move at lower listening levels.

Thoughts?

 

 

I found a few aspects of your post that I have "bolded" that caught my eye. Typically, lower level listening (65 dB - 75 dB) allows more detail appreciation than listening at very loud levels (90 dB - 100 dB) primarily due to the impact of the Fletcher-Munson curve and equal-loudness contours where the midrange is accentuated and bass / mid bass is de-emphasized. 

 

 

Fletcher-Munson curve

 

 

 

 

 

In addition, once placement issues are addressed, the Forte series speaker (e.g., I and II) tends to be more difficult to drive in the frequency region below 200 Hz vs. something like the Khorn, La Scala or Heresy; and as the impedance of a speaker dips in certain regions of the overall impedance curve, the amplifier needs to deliver more “current.”  Many vintage receivers, new budget receivers and budget amplifiers can become very anemic in the sub-200 Hz range when asked to deliver enough current to properly drive an impedance load around 3.5 ohm.

 

Many of the vintage receivers would have difficulty driving 4 ohm loads; unless you went TOTL and even some of those would have difficulty.  The HK430 isn't rated for impedance below 4 ohm; and for example, TOLT Marantz 2325 rated power of 125 watts per channel is not recommended for 4 ohm speaker impedance loads. 

 

Although, the Emotiva mini x has both an 8 ohm and 4 ohm rating, while the company has disclosed 8 ohm as 50 watts / channel RMS; continuous into 8 ohms; 20 Hz - 20 kHz; the company has conveniently omitted the frequency response range where 4 ohms can be handled and only discloses 80 watts / channel RMS; continuous; into 4 ohms (we don't know if that means it can only handle 4 ohms from 1,000 Hz through 10,000 Hz or some other range that does not stress the amp like the bass frequency range can stress an amp). 

 

 

Forte II impedance curve

 

 

 

 

Heresy impedance curve

 

 

 

 

 

La Scala impedance curve

 

 

 

 

 

 

Khorn impedance curve

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

These are pretty pristine I'd say. Bought them from a forum member and they are almost perfect. I replaced with Crites crossovers and Tweeters. I've checked several times to make sure everything was wired up correctly. Something just seems to be wrong.

They sound fantastic listening to something like Norah Jones, but when you play anything, from any source, more upbeat, they sound harsh and shallow. No punch.

I know they are capable of it, I've heard some pretty low frequencies from movies on them. And I'm not looking for a crazy amount of bass. I want more if that live feel.

I'd say my Heresys sounded more dynamic to me. They didn't have quite the realism as the fortes but they felt more alive.

I've just never been that happy with my fortes as much as I want to be. They seem very difficult to place, and I've tried every which a way. Used lasers, tape measures, stands, etc.

There has to be more to these speakers after what everyone else has said. The room is not that big, there is a large opening to the kitchen so maybe that has something to do with it.

I feel more power will help but I guess I won't know till i try.

 

 

There is a good chance that "harsh" is source related as there are many crap recordings on the market. 

 

Regarding "shallow" I believe that Deang and willand have outlined a couple of points that I excerpted below that can be significant impediments causing "shallow."

 

Regarding "no punch" you will need an amplifier that can generate enough current to drive the impedance curve portion that is below 4 ohms satisfactorily, along with the portions that hover between 4 ohms and 8 ohms; and that listening experience will also probably require additional volume than the 65 dB or so listening level to overcome the Fletcher-Munson curve.  If you have tone controls or equalizer controls, you can give it a bass boost in that area to help overcome the Fletcher-Munson curve for lower level listening. Also, I'm not aware of any Norah Jones music that is significant to the area of the impedance curve in question.

 

Regarding "Heresy speakers sounding more dynamic," the Heresy speaker has a very benign impedance curve that can be driven by most any amplifier/receiver that even remotely has a hint of quality built in.

 

 

 

Should be placed near corners, and pulled out about a foot or so. The sound should be balanced and even. If you're a bass hound, get a sub. The Forte II is a nice sounding speaker, but it isn't as authoritative sounding as its larger brethren.

 

I think you are asking too much of your Onkyo TX-NR609(100w/ch AVR wattage) to drive your forte" IIs with authority and send quality bass to a listening position near 17 feet away.  Also, for that listening position, your mains are spaced apart only about 9.5 feet which most likely not provide "accurate" soundstaging for stereo music.

 

Just my take but I may be way off.

 

Bill

 

 

Given the impedance curve of the Forte series, listening distance, and spacing of speakers, none of his receivers/amplifiers would be on my "recommended component" list for Forte speakers.  I've listened to a lot of the vintage Harman Kardon receivers and amplifiers over the years and while many were “high current” designs, and noting that the HK430 should be satisfactory on a pair of Khorns or La Scalas, and excellent for a pair of Heresy speakers, given the Heresy benign impedance curve, it would not be at the top of my list of recommend components for the Forte series due to the impedance curve of the Forte dipping below 4 ohms for most of the 100 Hz through 200 Hz frequency range.

 

In relation to the Harman Kardon vintage HK series of receivers, even the HK730 receiver isn't rated for 4 ohms and it was a significant step up from the HK430 design; and totally different as the HK730 used a complementary symmetry amplifier design.  I believe that many people confuse the HK430 with the HK730; however, the HK430 actually has much more similarity to the HK330 than it does to the HK730. I believe that the HK330 and the HK430 are basically the same as they both used the same circuit board except that the HK430 tuner circuit board has FM muting section populated, the HK330 does not; and the HK330 has only one power transformer on the 20W rated HK330.  

 

 

.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Fjd

[Lemon string]

Mine produce a really big low end. They're I's and placed a foot off of each wall in corners of the room. Im running them on a Sansui AU-555a 35 wpc. I'd check the wires from the networks to the sqauker and the woofer, could be you have the leads on the wrong terminals. I made this mistake when I hooked up my new crossovers in my Cornwalls. I had zero midrange because I had both the negative and positive running to the same side of the driver. The mid driver in my CW's have separate terminals on each side, both with two tabs, hence the confusion on my part.

[willland]

Sad thing is your Onkyo 609 does not have stereo preouts so you could not just add an outboard amp to the mix.

 

Bill

[willland]

Mine produce a really big low end. They're I's and placed a foot off of each wall in corners of the room. 

 

When I had my forte' I's they sure were not lacking bass.  With that said, they did perform much better when I added a nice high current amp to just my Onkyo TX-SR705.

 

Bill

[dtr20]

When I got my belles, they were lacking in bass because I had it hooked up to a home theater receiver. I even started thinking I had a bad pair of Crites crossovers. Once I hooked them up to a 2 channel receiver, they sounded amazing.

[Fjd]

 

I know it sounds weird, fortes are supposed to have tons of bass. I've tried placing these all over my room, in and out of corners, Crites crossovers, everything nice and sealed up, etc. They just sound a bit anemic.

I'm thinking they need more power. Started out with my HK 430, what's that, 25 watts? Then tried the emotiva mini x with 50 watts. Seems like I should be getting more punch at 65-75 dBs.

So the question is, would more power make these more dynamic? Not that I want them loud, I get the feeling though, as efficient as they are, the woofers need more power to really move at lower listening levels.

Thoughts?

 

 

I found a few aspects of your post that I have "bolded" that caught my eye. Typically, lower level listening (65 dB - 75 dB) allows more detail appreciation than listening at very loud levels (90 dB - 100 dB) primarily due to the impact of the Fletcher-Munson curve and equal-loudness contours where the midrange is accentuated and bass / mid bass is de-emphasized. 

 

In addition, once placement issues are addressed, the Forte series speaker (e.g., I and II) tends to be more difficult to drive in the frequency region below 200 Hz vs. something like the Khorn, La Scala or Heresy; and as the impedance of a speaker dips in certain regions of the overall impedance curve, the amplifier needs to deliver more “current.”  Many vintage receivers, new budget receivers and budget amplifiers can become very anemic in the sub-200 Hz range when asked to deliver enough current to properly drive an impedance load around 3.5 ohm.

 

Many of the vintage receivers would have difficulty driving 4 ohm loads; unless you went TOTL and even some of those would have difficulty.  The HK430 isn't rated for 4 ohm; and for example, TOLT Marantz 2325 rated power of 125 watts per channel is not recommended for 4 ohm speaker impedance loads. 

 

Although, the Emotiva mini x has both an 8 ohm and 4 ohm rating, while the company has disclosed 8 ohm as 50 watts / channel RMS; continuous into 8 ohms; 20 Hz - 20 kHz; the company has conveniently omitted the frequency response range where 4 ohms can be handled and only discloses 80 watts / channel RMS; continuous; into 4 ohms (we don't know if that means it can only handle 4 ohms from 1,000 Hz through 10,000 Hz or some other range that does not stress the amp like the bass frequency range can stress an amp). 

 

 

 

 

 

I had a set hooked up to a Adcom 555 for a year or so.  About a foot from the rear wall in an open area.  No bloat in the bass though balanced.  An amp with very good bass drive makes them open up.  Also, it either sounds like you might have a wiring problem or the networks are balanced a little too forward.  When you start changing things like the crossover, you open a can of worms and a lot more tweaking.  The speaker is the sum of the parts, not the drivers.  The crossover is the heart, balance, and presentation of the speaker.

 

 

I think that many of us are reading past the bass issue regarding the lower level listening of 65 dB and while it doesn't address the aspects of the Fletcher-Munson / Equal-Loudness issues at lower level listening, here is a great example of how ADCOM gave a lot of insight into the 4 ohm specifications.  Here is the ADCOM GFA-555 II below that would have easily driven any of the low impedance dips that fall below 4 ohm in the Forte series impedance curves.

 

 

Rated Power Output

200 watts per channel into 8 Ω from 20 - 20,000 Hz at less than 0.04% THD, both channels driven.

325 watts per channel into 4 Ω from 20 - 20,000 Hz at less than 0.04% THD, both channels driven (requires fan option to do this for any length of time).

600 watts into 8 Ω from 20 - 20,000 Hz at less than 0.04% THD, bridged mono (requires fan option to do this for any length of time).

850 watts into 4 Ω from 20 - 20,000 Hz at less than 0.09% THD, bridged mono (requires fan option to do this for any length of time).

 

Dynamic Headroom

2.5 dB at 4 Ω.

[Deang]

... or the networks are balanced a little too forward. When you start changing things like the crossover, you open a can of worms and a lot more tweaking. The speaker is the sum of the parts, not the drivers. The crossover is the heart, balance, and presentation of the speaker.

Yet so many are using the same set up with no complaints. They are definitely more forward than in their stock configuration, but not so much to account for this problem.

The OP needs a powered subwoofer, or something that can actually deliver sustained high current without choking. Thoughts?

[Deang]

Think about high sensitivity and how it relates to low impedance. The Forte will play almost as loud with 10 watts as most other speakers do with a 100. High sensitivity extends headroom by default. While all watts may not be created equally (because of damping) - a watt is still a watt. If he normally listens at 90dB, he's using about 10 watts, which means he has plenty of reserve current to handle the lower impedance.

[Fjd]

Yeah, those numbers are loud for me too, 100dB with 120dB peaks is just nuts - but a lot of people love it.

 

 

 

I know it sounds weird, fortes are supposed to have tons of bass. I've tried placing these all over my room, in and out of corners, Crites crossovers, everything nice and sealed up, etc. They just sound a bit anemic.

I'm thinking they need more power. Started out with my HK 430, what's that, 25 watts? Then tried the emotiva mini x with 50 watts. Seems like I should be getting more punch at 65-75 dBs.

So the question is, would more power make these more dynamic? Not that I want them loud, I get the feeling though, as efficient as they are, the woofers need more power to really move at lower listening levels.

Thoughts?

 

 

Think about high sensitivity and how it relates to low impedance. The Forte will play almost as loud with 10 watts as most other speakers do with a 100. High sensitivity extends headroom by default. While all watts may not be created equally (because of damping) - a watt is still a watt. If he normally listens at 90dB, he's using about 10 watts, which means he has plenty of reserve current to handle the lower impedance.

 

 

I realize that most people do not read an entire post, let along all posts in a thread and I realize that in most situations you seem to be dealing with people that like 100 dB listening levels; however, in the OP's first post, he states the bass is "anemic" and that he expects "more punch at 65 dB - 75 dB."  In my experience, with all else checking out fine, I believe that at 65 dB - 75 dB listening levels he is most likely experiencing more of the phenomena of the Fletcher-Munson curve and equal-loudness contours where the midrange is perceived as accentuated and bass / mid bass is perceived as de-emphasized rather than something else.

 

 

 

[dtel]

I found a few aspects of your post that I have "bolded" that caught my eye.

 

Nice post, informative to the untrained like myself.  

[cincymat]

 

I found a few aspects of your post that I have "bolded" that caught my eye.

 

Nice post, informative to the untrained like myself.  

 

 

Fjd, might be the most informative post I've read here. Great job of explaining why it's important to match the amp to the load it's driving. 

 

Thanks for taking the time to post this.

 

Mark

[vondy]

Guess I'm going to have to do some experimenting to figure it out. Thinking about moving them into a smaller room I can close off just to see the difference. I've checked all the wiring several times but have not switched the old crossovers back in. I think I still have them....?

 

Couple things to make clear...

I'm not expecting sub bass from these. I'm expecting more of a live bass.

My two channel listening, which is what I'm describing, is from my Emotiva, or HK 430 in the past, not my Onkyo AVR.

 

I'm hoping all I need to do is upgrade amps, otherwise I'll eventually have to find another speaker that will work in my room. My old JBLs I had since high school had plenty of punch in this room. The fortes should too I suspect.

 

Thanks for everyone's thoughts.

[Ski Bum]

he is most likely experiencing more of the phenomena of the Fletcher-Munson curve and equal-loudness contours

 

OP, does your Yamaha have "YPAO Volume"?  That specifically was designed to address this quirk of human hearing, similar to Audyssey's Dynamic EQ.  Give it a try. 

 

edit...oops, doesn't seem that's the kit you're working with, sorry.  Does the Onk have a similar feature?

Edited June 11, 2016 by Ski Bum

[dtel]

Good luck, having some myself I wouldn't think a 11 x 17 room is to big to easily fill. I'm sure with some experimentation you will figure out the problem.

 

We had some playing (along with other models) at the Gathering in Hope, using all different amps, they sounded really good. Now remember we weren't trying to energize the building. 

 

 by the yellow shirt in other pic

[mustang guy]

 

Yeah, those numbers are loud for me too, 100dB with 120dB peaks is just nuts - but a lot of people love it.

 

 

 

I know it sounds weird, fortes are supposed to have tons of bass. I've tried placing these all over my room, in and out of corners, Crites crossovers, everything nice and sealed up, etc. They just sound a bit anemic.

I'm thinking they need more power. Started out with my HK 430, what's that, 25 watts? Then tried the emotiva mini x with 50 watts. Seems like I should be getting more punch at 65-75 dBs.

So the question is, would more power make these more dynamic? Not that I want them loud, I get the feeling though, as efficient as they are, the woofers need more power to really move at lower listening levels.

Thoughts?

 

 

Think about high sensitivity and how it relates to low impedance. The Forte will play almost as loud with 10 watts as most other speakers do with a 100. High sensitivity extends headroom by default. While all watts may not be created equally (because of damping) - a watt is still a watt. If he normally listens at 90dB, he's using about 10 watts, which means he has plenty of reserve current to handle the lower impedance.

 

 

I realize that most people do not read an entire post, let along all posts in a thread and I realize that in most situations you seem to be dealing with people that like 100 dB listening levels; however, in the OP's first post, he states the bass is "anemic" and that he expects "more punch at 65 dB - 75 dB."  In my experience, with all else checking out fine, I believe that at 65 dB - 75 dB listening levels he is most likely experiencing more of the phenomena of the Fletcher-Munson curve and equal-loudness contours where the midrange is perceived as accentuated and bass / mid bass is perceived as de-emphasized rather than something else.

 

When all else fails, go to eli5. Here is a link to eli5 that might help some peeps understand what he is talking about. https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2tzp3o/eli5_why_does_music_sound_more_pleasing_at_higher/. The particular quote I like best is "For example, you would need the bass of a song to be at 124dB to sound like the same loudness as Mids that are only 100dB."

[Fjd]

Couple things to make clear...

I'm not expecting sub bass from these. I'm expecting more of a live bass.

My two channel listening, which is what I'm describing, is from my Emotiva, or HK 430 in the past, not my Onkyo AVR.

 

 

 

he is most likely experiencing more of the phenomena of the Fletcher-Munson curve and equal-loudness contours

 

OP, does your Yamaha have "YPAO Volume"?  That specifically was designed to address this quirk of human hearing, similar to Audyssey's Dynamic EQ.  Give it a try. 

 

edit...oops, doesn't seem that's the kit you're working with, sorry.  Does the Onk have a similar feature?

 

 

 

I think a slightly smaller room (e.g., length) to better accommodate a typical listening position from the speakers may help, along with good speaker placement; however, with the phenomena of the Fletcher-Munson curve and equal-loudness contours, I believe that it will be really difficult to achieve the "bass punch approaching live bass" that you are looking for at lower dB listening levels. I tend to believe that it risks coming across as artificial or unbalanced, somewhat like a "bass hump" that is designed in the frequency response of certain speakers.

 

It has bee a long time since I played with the old HK receivers, but in thinking about the old HK 430 a little more, if the switches and controls are all clean and working on the HK 430, I would try using those.  The HK 430 does have a bass control (I believe it is a boost at 30 Hz so it may not help much with the difficult aspects where the Forte has the most difficult impedance dips), treble control, and a contour switch. 

 

The interesting aspect of the contour switch on the HK430 is that it typically works in conjunction with the volume control to increase bass energy at low volume settings.  I do not remember the range of boost; however, by activating the switch it would mean that it would have the most significant impact on the bass at very low volume levels and progressively decrease its effect as the volume level is increased.  The effect would be completely disengaged once the volume control passed the “12 O’clock” straight up setting.    

 

 

 

 

 

I know there is a significant portion of the audio-community that are against tone controls, equalizers and contour switches and would probably like to see the terminology added to the "Seven Words You Can Never Say on Television" (or post on an internet forum); however, I believe that a person's design goals for an audio system and listening experience are very personal aspects of an experience unique to that individual, and I have assembled systems that have little in the way of the signal path, as well as systems that rely more heavily on shaping the sound.  When placed in the correct room environment, I believe that both approaches have merits and their own respective trade-offs, and both can lead to very rewarding listening experiences.

 

 

 

I found a few aspects of your post that I have "bolded" that caught my eye.

 

Nice post, informative to the untrained like myself.  

 

 

 

 

 

I found a few aspects of your post that I have "bolded" that caught my eye.

 

Nice post, informative to the untrained like myself.  

 

 

Fjd, might be the most informative post I've read here. Great job of explaining why it's important to match the amp to the load it's driving. 

 

Thanks for taking the time to post this.

 

Mark

 

 

 

This thread also brought back a few memories of when I was a kid in that the lower the sound level when playing music and trying to achieve "balanced sound" across the frequency response range, the more my equalizer looked like a “smiley face,” and as I would increase volume, the more I would need to flatten it across all frequencies until the smile disappeared.

 

A couple of points of clarification regarding the vintage receivers.  In general, back when I was growing up in the 1960s (and even into the 1970s) it seemed that very rarely would you find a mass-market speaker that would dip much below 8 ohms.  Even many of the individual drivers used in theater set-ups, where I was fortunate to obtain used on the secondary markets, were 16 ohms or in some instances 32 ohms. 

 

Essentially, it seemed that in those days that there was not a general need to provide 4 ohm power ratings for consumer gear, and since consumer 4 ohm speakers were not really mainstream as they are today, there was not necessarily a real business case to design consumer receivers and amplifiers that could drive complex, low impedance loads lower than 4 ohms in the mass market consumer sector of the audio business.

 

Given the above, it is not necessarily that the better vintage solid state receivers cannot handle 4 ohms, many of them actually can handle 4 ohm loads, although they will run noticeably hotter as the receiver tries to meet the current demand of the low impedance load.  In fact, the ability to handle a 4 ohm load is true of most receivers of the time-period that were designed to handle two pairs of speakers simultaneously. 

 

When the receiver would allow for the use of two sets of speakers there was typically a warning in the manual and sometimes on the back of the receiver itself about the need to use speakers above 8 ohms given that two pair were often ran in parallel and would lower the impedance and require a more demanding draw of more current from the receiver. 

 

The first quote was the old Harman Kardon 4 ohm warning for the HK430 (the pictures below; HK430 4-8-16 ohms, and HK730 only references 8-16 ohm speakers) and the second quote was from the old Sansui integrated amplifiers that could run two pair of speakers at the same time.

 

“Note: All stereophonic solid state amplifiers can normally accommodate only one pair of 4 ohm speakers. This means that if you have connected a pair of 4 ohm speakers to SPEAKER SYSTEM 1, no additional speakers of any kind may be connected to either SPEAKER SYSTEM 1 or SPEAKERS SYSTEM 2 without consultation with your dealer, Harman/Kardon, or the manufacturer of year speakers.”

 

"When connecting two sets of speakers, care must be taken to ensure that both sets are rated at 8 Ohms or higher."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not much different than some of the differences between pro gear and consumer gear that must be recognized and dealt with, standards 40 and 50 years ago for consumer audio gear were much different than they are today and it can sometimes be problematic to assume that today’s standards apply to 40 year old receivers.

 

 

.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Fjd

[vondy]

I'm always a bit confused over the ohms, fortes say 8 ohms on the back so where would all this 4 ohms talk come into play?

I use an emotiva DC-1 for my dac. It can double as a preamp so I'm open to any stand alone higher wattage amp recommendations people are enjoying with there fortes. I've thought about trying some of emotiva offerings.

[willland]

I'm always a bit confused over the ohms, fortes say 8 ohms on the back so where would all this 4 ohms talk come into play?

 

 

 

There is a sub 4ohm dip from about 135Hz to 225Hz which is a pretty meaty part of the upper bass region.  Not amplifier destroying dip by no means but enough that could suck the energy from the recordings if the amp is not capable enough to reproduce properly.

 

Bill

Edited June 12, 2016 by willland