2 channel listening room

[cincymat]

I need some advice. I have a 15 x 20 room I'd like to turn into a 2 channel stereo room. I have La Scalas and Forte IIs that could be used.  The La Scalas sound absolutely divine in my 24 x 24 garage. Problem is the garage is not a year round environment. The Forte IIs sound OK indoors but not magical like the La Scalas. How do I modify the room indoors to sound like the garage? 

 

Mark

[mustang guy]

Now that's an interesting request! 

 

Typically a garage has very poor acoustical properties with lots of reflective surfaces. My shop does LIVE very well because of this, so I suppose I understand what you love about it. I have La Scalas all around my shop. 

 

Are you planning on moving the LaScalas into the listening room and not use the Forte's? You want the sound to echo around like a concert in a hall? That is sorta what those LS in your garage probably do.

[cincymat]

I guess I don't think the La Scalas echo around my garage. The garage doesn't have interior walls or a ceiling.  I think, and I could be wrong, that helps to mitigate reflections. So, what I hear is a very defined sound source. I haven't measured the actual performance. Maybe I should?  

 

I do do want to move the La Scalas indoors.

 

Mark

[mustang guy]

Oh I see. Well the La Scalas seem very good at directional and since you aren't going to suffer room modes nearly as bad in a big shop, you are definitely getting some more pure sound. What you will struggle with and need to learn about is room modes and managing/mitigating reflections. These topics cover everything from room shape and dimensions to speaker placement to acoustic treatments and the list goes on and on. You simply won't be able to get a Forte to sound like a La Scala. You won't get a room to sound like a garage. What you will be able to do is get the room to sound as good as it can given it's dimensions.

 

What you can start with is what you don't like about the Forte's in the listening room.

[Ski Bum]

Fortes should be great in that size room.  What specifically seems to be lacking?

[cincymat]

The Forte's just don't sound as "big" as the La Scalas to me. Does that make sense?  I think the smaller room makes the La Scalas reflect too much sound energy off the side walls. I'll have to try to measure it with the umik (?) I have. Maybe I need room treatments.

 

Appreciate the feedback. I really would like the La Scalas to sound great in the smaller room. 

 

Mark  

[mustang guy]

The LaScalas are more efficient, so if you A/B test them they will sound a lot louder with the same power. As far as them sounding bigger. The smart *** answer is that they are bigger, but I'm not a smart *** usually, so I think you mean they sound bigger in the garage than the Forte's sound in the listening room. Is this correct?

[dtel]

3 hours ago, cincymat said:

How do I modify the room indoors to sound like the garage? 

 

Put the LaScala's  inside and see what you think, and try the Forte's in the garage, you could always move them back. Put the best sounding where they will get used the most.

I think you just like the LaScalas better. If I had to guess it's the midrange and horn bass of the LaScala , I would feel the same. Not that I don't like the forte's, we have some, and it is smaller but mostly a completely different design ?  Could be the difference ?

 

[Grizzog]

Bigger speakers generally do sound bigger. I've had many different sets that are awesome, but nothing sounds as "big" as my Altec 19s. Larger baffles and larger speakers generally create a larger soundstage, in my experience.

[richieb]

Commenting on the speakers themselves not room or treatments. Cincy,  I've owned all the speakers you mention plus several more. No doubt LS will better a Forte as even my Belles did and Corns will easily better the Forte, IMO. Design and size matters in many facets of their effect within their surroundings. I plan to soon post the differences I have found in finding the right amp for my new KP450/EAW/Crites Frankensteins and just last night for grins went back to back with the KP' and KHorns. The difference wasn't subtle. A giant horn, twin 15's, crossed two way, sounds different, way different than even a modded KHorn. I'll leave it at that for now.

[jimjimbo]

Don't see any discussion as of yet here on what's in the room?  First of all, are you putting the speakers on the long wall or the short wall?  Are they in corners, up against the wall, or pulled out and toed in?  Is the room carpeted?  Upholstered furniture?  Bookcases, windows, etc, etc?  What's your listening position?  Ceiling height?  Can you shoot a few pics of your room and your setup?  After learning some of these things, then I think a more coherent discussion can begin. 

[Chris A]

12 hours ago, cincymat said:

I have a 15 x 20 room I'd like to turn into a 2 channel stereo room...The La Scalas sound absolutely divine in my 24 x 24 garage. How do I modify the room indoors to sound like the garage? 

 

1) Add absorption in the nearfield of the La Scala midrange horn mouths (i.e., carpet the floor out to about a yard/metre or two, side walls...2' squares on each side wall and on front wall). 

 

2) Move the La Scalas into the room corners with the absorption squares and floor absorption - for widest separation of the midrange horn mouths and tweeters, aimed slightly in front of your listening position, i.e., not flat on the front wall.

 

3) Add a few diffusion panels around the front portion of the room (especially front wall) and perhaps ceiling that are effective down to ~400 Hz, with a bass trap or two in one or more corners to control midbass down to 80-100 Hz (i.e., 2' x 4' x 4" maxi traps diagonal across the corner)

 

4) Remove any acoustic reflectors between the loudspeakers (except diffusion panels) out to about 1-2 yards from the midrange horn mouths and your listening position.

 

The sound and imaging will be greatly improved if you do all of this... probably much better than they were in the garage.

 

Chris

[cincymat]

Thank you everyone for responding. I'll draw a layout of the room and post it when I get back from Knoxville on Sunday. I'm moving my daughter there to attend grad school at UT.  

 

Really appreciate your help. 

 

Mark

[mkane]

Get Better Sound by Jim Smith is a good read.

[Ski Bum]

Try the fortes fairly deep in the corners, heavily toed in.  Choose whichever wall, long or short, such that the speaker axes cross in front of the listening position.  Fortes may not provide bass as tight, but 'Scalas will never dig as deep.  The small room and application of a bit more wattage should do the trick.

[Ski Bum]

23 minutes ago, mkane said:

Get Better Sound by Jim Smith is a good read.

If you like fairy tales, perhaps.  (Ok, some of it is actually worthwhile, but he treads deeply in audiophool BS.)

[thebes]

Wow!  The old Forum writ large.

 

Wonderful replies guys.  Almost every base has been covered. The knowledge here always amazes me.

 

Now I'm thinking he just needs fancy cables.

[twk123]

This is my go to video on room treatments for reflections etc. There are certain principles that should be adhered to and you can tweak things from there. Chris A did a good job going over some of these and the absorption on the primary reflection point is the most important in my book. The easiest way to check for the reflection points is to get a laser pointer, a white balloon, a mirror, some beer and a buddy. Place the white balloon where your head would be while sitting in your listening position. Then take the laser pointer and place it on top of the front of your LaScala above the tweeter. Have your buddy hold the mirror on the wall starting at the speaker and point the laser at the mirror. Have him move the mirror back toward the couch along the wall until the laser hit the balloon and that is where the sound is going to bounce before getting to your ears and where you want a absorption panel. You will want to do this for both speakers and the left and right walls for 4 primary reflection points. This is a little cumbersome and takes some patience so the beer is important. You can also try this with your Spouse but you may get 5 min before she gets tired of it and is not recommended. 

 

Also, if you want to replicate the larger room of your garage, diffusion will give a greater sense of space in the room.

 

 

[cincymat]

Thanks guys. Great replies from all. I'm looking forward to making my space sound great.

 

Mark

[cincymat]

Here's the room. It's a challenge for sure. All the items in the room are to scale. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your ideas. I appreciate them very much.

 

Mark

Edited August 18, 2016 by cincymat
Added some text