Paducah Home Theater Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Read the first part of the article below. Does anybody agree with that assessment? They tell people this kind of stuff all the time, it's nothing new. Usually they have people thinking that they will automatically damage their speakers if the speakers can handle more power than the receiver can pump out. Downgrading speakers seems to be a common solution. I don't get it. http://www.avsforum.com/ask-the-editors-can-my-avr-power-the-speakers-i-want-to-buy/ Q: I have had my eye on four of the Klipsch R-28F for quite some time now, I am about ready to finally make the purchase (after saving for a year now). The problem I’m just now realizing is that the minimum power recommendation for the speakers is 150W per ch at 8 ohms and my AVR, a Yamaha RX-V379BL, only puts out 100 watts per channel. I called Klipsch and the rep stated I will not get the full potential out of those speakers and recommend I downgrade to the R-26Fs or buy a receiver that outputs 150W into 8 ohms. The problem is that I cannot seem to find a receiver under $1000 that is capable of this. I am very disappointed and I was wondering if you really think the speakers would not perform very well on my current receiver, or could you recommend a workaround? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzog Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I've seen this recommended by Klipsch reps in other locations as well. I can't understand it. Perhaps Klipsch has had many claims for blown speakers in the past due to clipping and they are trying to avoid this. Seems like an odd tactic though. I've run my RF-7IIs on a 30wpc NAD without issue, and they recommend a minimum of 250W. For theater applications, I run them on a 5x120w Outlaw amp with no issue. I guess some cheaper receivers may be the issue when people read 100w and that may actually be clipping power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 We've run our Home Theater listed below, pretty much every night for almost 15 years at extremely loud SPLs with only AVRs that were rated 140 wpc--No clipping or damage here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 If you're clipping with R-28F's, what makes you think you're not going to be clipping with R-26F's at the same volume? If they were like hey, the big ones have this weird impedance dip and cheap 100 watt amps don't appreciate it too much then maybe, but just blindly saying such things based on nothing but the published power handling number makes zero sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 53 minutes ago, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said: hey, the big ones have this weird impedance dip and cheap 100 watt amps don't appreciate it too much then maybe, but just blindly saying such things based on nothing but the published power handling number makes zero sense to me. I agree with you and why I have confidence in the AVR choices I've made (rated for 4 Ohm speakers). That said, when you start talking about impedance dips, most folks eyes start glazing over so over-simplifying it in terms of what to look for in WPC may be the easiest way for them to convey they may need something beefier to handle those at loud volume--That's my 2 cents. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I ran my whole system off a Sony 100 w avr and never had issues. I had the VF 36 which are and the same power rating as the RF 28. I've been runnig the VF 35's off them for the past 5 years. I have even had the RF 7 system on that avr. I think I paid a bit over $200 for the avr new. O.P. listen to the people here who have used similar speakers with less than 150 watt amps/avr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 27 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said: I agree with you and why I have confidence in the AVR choices I've made (rated for 4 Ohm speakers). That said, when you start talking about impedance dips, most folks eyes start glazing over so over-simplifying it in terms of what to look for in WPC may be the easiest way for them to convey they may need something beefier to handle those at loud volume--That's my 2 cents. I actually started paying attention to this when a customer of mine called in several times before meeting me. They apparently had him thinking that a Marantz SR-7009 was questionable in terms of driving RP-280's (10 watt difference), and was even trying to talk him out of dinking with Atmos at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I guess we ought to repossess a bunch of Khorns and Belles running off tube amps, huh? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 8 minutes ago, John Albright said: I guess we ought to repossess a bunch of Khorns and Belles running off tube amps, huh? You better downgrade speakers there buddy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 I'm convinced a bunch of not very wise people are employed there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K5SS Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Time to pop some popcorn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Of course, repeating a non-truth many many times makes it true? Clipping is not what takes out tweeters, excessive long term power is what takes out tweeters (and/or too low of a crossover point, and/or too shallow of a crossover slope). Driving a small amp into clipping generally takes out a tweeter from the excessive long term power during the non-clipped portion of the program material. Poorly designed amplifiers can have off-set problems during clipping, leading to excessive cone motion (on woofers) and mechanical damage. Some pro amps have loudspeaker off-set integrators to prevent this problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 13 minutes ago, djk said: Clipping is not what takes out tweeters, excessive long term power is what takes out tweeters (and/or too low of a crossover point, and/or too shallow of a crossover slope). I'd have to go against common wisdom here, and agree with Dennis on this one. Why? Well, when you look at the waveforms on popular music discs made since 1991, it's clear that virtually all the tracks are significantly clipped on more than 90% of their peaks...even if those peaks aren't at full scale--100% amplitude. When I run Clip Fix on these tracks, I usually regain from 3-6 dB of dynamic range (which is, of course, a huge amount). If those clipped peaks were not flat topped, i.e., like square waves, Clip Fix wouldn't be able to fix them. So the commonly said phrase that 'it's underpowered amplifiers that blow tweeters'...really can't be correct. It's running of too much power through the tweeter that kills tweeter diaphragms. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzog Posted August 12, 2016 Share Posted August 12, 2016 Wouldn't running an amp into distortion cause over-heating quickly for a voice coil?Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted August 15, 2016 Share Posted August 15, 2016 "Wouldn't running an amp into distortion cause over-heating quickly for a voice coil?" No, that was the point of my post. When you drive an amp 10dB into clipping on good dynamic program material, 90% of the time it is not clipping, so the 10dB increase in power during the non-clipped portion of the program is what is heating up the voice-coil. The difference in power between an un-clipped sine wave at full power and a clipped full square wave is only 3dB. Rane has a good app note on this if you care to read it. http://www.adx.co.nz/techinfo/audio/note128.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted August 15, 2016 Author Share Posted August 15, 2016 On 8/11/2016 at 7:56 PM, Grizzog said: ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted August 15, 2016 Author Share Posted August 15, 2016 Wow this new forum can get jacked up. Anyway, the car audio community is all worried about frying voice coils by clipping, but it's the oddest thing, they're worried about it for subs. I don't see how chopping the top of a sinewave signal to a sub is going to fry it. If that were the case, simply playing Super Mario Brothers ought to fry speakers left and right. All those old Atari / Nintendo games are square wave and maybe sometimes triangle wave. So why would you play a retro video game with non-stop square wave sounds and think nothing of it but consider a clipped signal that may look very similar on a scope to be a voice coil killer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 On 8/10/2016 at 0:10 PM, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said: ...my AVR, a Yamaha RX-V379BL, only puts out 100 watts per channel.... Yeah, right. That thing is lucky if it puts out 35 watts with all channels driven. It claims 70 with 2 channels driven, and I bet that's a huge overstatement. Frankly, if this guy wants an AVR with 150 watts he will never find one outside a pre-pro. They don't exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted August 16, 2016 Author Share Posted August 16, 2016 38 minutes ago, mustang guy said: Frankly, if this guy wants an AVR with 150 watts he will never find one outside a pre-pro. They don't exist. I called this consumer line awhile back just to see what they'd tell me. With my RF-7ii's they wanted me to get a 250-300 watt per channel receiver. Not amp. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzog Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 So I was reading a bit more about clipping...It isn't technically the clipping that is the issue, but the fact then when the clipping occurs the amp is essentially compressing the sound. The compressing of the sound causes more information to be sent as high frequencies and overloads tweeters with too much power. So, yes, it is too much power that destroys drivers, but can happen with an underpowered amp upon clipping. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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