Schu Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 I just got a new tube based pre amp and I am already thinking of rolling some tubes but wanted to see if folks thought that a rectifier tube change would make a difference in sound or texture see as the signal never goes thru that tube... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 I don't think the rectifiers will change things. First change would be a preamp and then the power tubes. What amp and preamp did you get. I just now getting into this tube stuff and ordered some Tung-sol preamp tubes to go along with the EL 34 B power tubes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted September 1, 2016 Author Share Posted September 1, 2016 thanks guys... I bought a eastern electric minimax point to point preamp. I am already very impressed by the change in sound even at this first blush... its quite good even with stock tubes. A single 6x4 and two 12AU7. Currently the 6x4 is a GE unit and seems to have plenty of gain... I can barely with the pot control to 1/3 of max without blowing me out of the back of the room. I am wondering if I should send it to craig so he can give it a once over... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 No technical expert but doubt there is an issue with the pre itself. Classic case of system matching, or mis-matching, that I have experienced all too often. And I find the issue much more pronounced with our 100-105db Klipsch speakers. I imagine the pre has too much output voltage in relation to your amps. I have a NP B1 passive that had virtually no play in the volume before like you say, would put me to the back of the room, I spoke with Nelson who had me send it to him to install "more forgiving" volume controls. It now comes on song around 12 o'clock vs. 8. You could try some line attenuators between the pre and your cables that cut output 4, 6, 8db but I really don't like putting another roadblock in the system. It's really just an RCA plug with an internal resistor. Are you running tube or SS amps? Best luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkane Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 ^^^^^^^^what he said. I also use attenuators on the CD player so the volume control can used throughout it's range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted September 2, 2016 Author Share Posted September 2, 2016 frankly... I am not worried about volume control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted September 2, 2016 Share Posted September 2, 2016 Schu, I've read that diffent rectifier tubes can change the impedance of the circuit and effect the rest of the circuit, so the answer is probably yes. In what way is far beyond my understanding. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 6X4s are cheap...maybe try a Mullard...it will last quite awhile provided it's a good tube. OTOH, rolling different brands of the same type of rectifier with various amounts of wear will effect the B+ voltage. That difference in B+ is what possibly one hears as a change in sound. The differences in the sonic signature of a amplifier from swapping coupling capacitors, rolling tubes, and other passive parts should be in theory more audible with simple single-ended amplifiers having a minimal parts count in the circuit. Such as a tube amplifier of the single-ended variety. As far as the too much gain issue, are you using the tube pre with a solid state amplifier? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted September 3, 2016 Author Share Posted September 3, 2016 Yes... still using my class d at a way to much 250 watts... but the sound coming out of the system now with the new jupiter capped AA's and he new pre amp is nothng short of sublime.... just absolutely superb. The hyper sensitive gain/volume issue is not a big one for me. Remember the bel cantos have to double as HT duty out put thru the pioneer sc... but frankly pulling the pioneer out of the chain for 2 channel in terms of pre amp duty has been a real eye opener. The experience has me wanting to dump more money on an ever better tube pre amp... but for now, I am VERY happy with the little minimax. I love the simplicity of the design and the lack of any bells and whistles beyond the capacitors. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted September 3, 2016 Author Share Posted September 3, 2016 I think I found part of the issue... my DAC was set at 100 max output at its internal volume control... cutting it back to 70-80 makes everything good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 Schu, how does the Bel Canto compare with the Pioneer in SQ. I'm new to tubes but, liking the un-EQ sound with less processing in the audio chain. Using different tube to change the tone is a lot different than using EQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyto Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 I have a Hagerman Cornet 2 that uses tube rectification. I have used 4 different rectifier tubes and they all make it sound a little different. A lot of people claim that if it is not in the signal chain it does not affect the sound, that is baloney. Everything affects the sound, particularly with tubes because small changes in voltages such as bias will change the sound. Different rectifiers will usually have a different voltage drop, which affects the B+, which can affect the sound. The B+ was different with every rectifier that I used. I was a licensed electronic tech in the tube days of the 70s, so I have a decent understanding of what is going on but I don't claim to be an expert. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtmudd Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 Read this http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/tuberolling/tuberolling.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted September 4, 2016 Author Share Posted September 4, 2016 8 hours ago, derrickdj1 said: Schu, how does the Bel Canto compare with the Pioneer in SQ. I'm new to tubes but, liking the un-EQ sound with less processing in the audio chain. Using different tube to change the tone is a lot different than using EQ. I have always used my pioneers in pre out mode so I left the class d3 pioneer long ago in as far as amplification... but I did a lot of back to back comparrisons before making that switch so I could be sure of my move to monoblocks. That being said, I still use the pioneer to run the center/sub/rear channels for home theater. After getting the bel cantos there was a significant difference spatially and dimensionally... it was very easy to hear the improvement. Remember, these are $4000 amplifiers with a lot of proprietary circuitry from a designer that long designed Tube based gear before moving to class d. Is it four grand worth, probably not... but I always buy used. I spent a couple years using the pioneer... first the sc35 and subsequently the sc85 as my room correction, pot control and pre amp. I have always loved the deep deep blackness and great control... but now I have found a new way. I really think there is a huge gain in quality to be had in the pre amp area and I can not see myself ever going back to an integrated as a pre/control unit... the tube based pre is literally in a different league interms of sound quality and delivery on the promise of great airy, balanced, shimmery audiblity. All this with absolutely no influence or control over room correction, eq or any other "things" that can get in the way of the sound delivery in the signal chain. I spent A LOT of money and time on upgrading my LSII's in an attempt to capture the magic I experienced when I first added the jupiter caps to my cornwalls and frankly there was a trade off between the new AAs and the original AL4s... one was not really better than the other even though they were distinctly different. NOW, with the new pre amp the AAs are nothing less than magnificent... really quite stunning. It is safe to say that the choke point had been the pre amp/pioneer area and the significance of a great tube based pre amp cannot be understated... so much so that I am already looking at other tube based pre amps as a future upgrade... though that would be some ways off. I am sure there is a "compromise" by using the class d with the tube pre, but it really is a plateau I am comfortable with for the time being. I did give up quite a bit of blackness with the new pre amp, but it doesnt affect the listening experience... for now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 Nicely put Schu. AVR'a have some nice feature that can help with the setup but, I see this two ways. One is to work with the system and the other is to work against your system. Working with your system is using the least amount of filters and processing. Good speaker placement,, good position of the MLP and setup go a long way. Good amplification is important but, the preamp determines a lot of what the final sound at the MLP is, that we either like or don't like. Tube gear is great. I can't quit wrap my head around the fact that tubes gear uses distortion as a tone control to an extent. In general, we think of distortion as bad but, tube gear has me re-thinking this. The experience is more immersive and has a smoother delivery in a lot of cases. I can really understand your post because we have both been rock'in with the Pioneer's since the SC 35 came out. I am really liking the tube sound and wonder about a tube preamp. I've spent enough money for now but, a tube preamp may be in the future. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 17 hours ago, cyto said: I have a Hagerman Cornet 2 that uses tube rectification. I have used 4 different rectifier tubes and they all make it sound a little different. A lot of people claim that if it is not in the signal chain it does not affect the sound, that is baloney. Everything affects the sound, particularly with tubes because small changes in voltages such as bias will change the sound. Different rectifiers will usually have a different voltage drop, which affects the B+, which can affect the sound. The B+ was different with every rectifier that I used. I was a licensed electronic tech in the tube days of the 70s, so I have a decent understanding of what is going on but I don't claim to be an expert. So were these 4 rectifiers of a different type? If all were the same type and you measured 4 widely different voltages from them I'd be careful of your tube source... you should be able to take a dozen of the same type rectifier tubes from different manufacturers and not see a major difference in the B+ ... in my opinion not enough to change the sound of the product they were used in. Now start changing types and the sound can start changing drastically and for few reasons beyond just raw voltage measurements 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyto Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 4 hours ago, NOSValves said: So were these 4 rectifiers of a different type? If all were the same type and you measured 4 widely different voltages from them I'd be careful of your tube source... you should be able to take a dozen of the same type rectifier tubes from different manufacturers and not see a major difference in the B+ ... in my opinion not enough to change the sound of the product they were used in. Now start changing types and the sound can start changing drastically and for few reasons beyond just raw voltage measurements So were these 4 rectifiers of a different type? Some were some weren't. If all were the same type and you measured 4 widely different voltages from them I'd be careful of your tube source... you should be able to take a dozen of the same type rectifier tubes from different manufacturers and not see a major difference in the B+ I didn't say widely or major in describing the voltage difference My point was that changing rectifiers can (and does in my experience) change the sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube fanatic Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 In regard to the sonic differences you heard when changing rectifier tubes, did you experience this blind (meaning having a friend swap them without your knowing what was being done)? I'd bet that it would be impossible to make such a judgment under those conditions. Craig is absolutely correct. Normal production tolerance differences are small enough that voltage output variations are not worth considering. Designers of equipment consider the likely possibility that the voltage from the wall socket can vary a great deal from one locale to another resulting in B+ variations of greater than 10%. If their equipment sounded like crap at, say, 110V but sounded great at 120V there would be something radically wrong with their design philosophy. Class A voltage amplifiers change performance parameters so little with plate voltage variations of even 10% that it isn't worth thinking about. The same goes for tubes which need replacement. Have you ever found a designer who claims that his equipment can only meet specs and sound good if NOS Mullard tubes are used vs. NOS Sylvanias? The 5Y3 used in your phono preamp doesn't even know that it is doing anything at the minuscule current draw of that circuit. I have never encountered a person who could judge a sonic difference when swapping healthy rectifier tubes in power amps, let alone a preamp. What I have experienced is a person believing that the tube they just paid $250 for because of its presumed magical properties sounds far superior to a less costly tube. I am not bashing your beliefs. As with anything, if you find one rectifier to be better, then enjoy it! However, if someone is going to spend their money on tube rolling, there are other parts of the circuit which will better serve their need. And, even there, I'd be very skeptical about taking recommendations for a particular tube. Just because it sounds good in one piece of equipment doesn't mean that it will perform equally well in another which may have radically different operating parameters. I'm presenting my point of view for the education of others who may be considering trying tube type equipment. I've attached the manual for your phono preamp which contains the schematics for those who want to view the circuit. Maynard cornet2.pdf 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 I am no expert on tube gear and like Nos Valve and Tube Fantstic's comment. This goes along with what I have read about rectifer tubes. Rolling preamp and power tubes is a bit different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 What kind/type of amplifier were you doing this comparison? Edit: Forget it I see after Maynard's post it is a Cornet 2 phono stage. If nothing else at least it's a nice phono stage. I still say if you lined up 10 strong testing 5Y3 they would not make more than minor difference in B+ voltages and in my opinion 0% difference in sound. But hey to each his own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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