Advice for Beginners....

[ODS123]

1 hour ago, Shakeydeal said:

Minds are very unlikely to change. You would laugh if I told you the first time I tried an aftermarket power cord on a SS amp I was on the phone the next day spending my 300.00. Same amp, same volume level, same speakers, same room, same listener.

 

Like you said, we should all enjoy this hobby in whatever way we like. If doing a rain dance in your listening room before turning on your system improves the sound, who am I to poo poo your belief?

 

Shakey

 

Committed minds aren't likely to change, but Beginners taking in both sides of the argument might be influenced.  The future of this hobby depends, IMHO, on a degree of self-imposed validity and honesty tests/controls by reviewer, mfgs., and just a bit of skepticism from consumers..   I know several people who sold their floors standers and components in favor of a Sonos b/c they regard this hobby as totally off it's rocker.

 

As to your Power Cord.  ..Not trying to convince you, but I must share a word w/ beginners who may have read your comment:

 

To All Beginners!!

Before upgrading your power cord from the one included w/ your component ask yourself:  How is it possible that electricity travels through hundreds of miles of outdoor power line (with countless splices, and new ones possibly added after every power outage), then hundreds and hundreds of feet (maybe yards) of Romex in your home, and yet it is somehow improved by swapping the last three feet of cable b/w the wall and the component?  Please think hard on this before buying!  And again, if it does improve the purity of the electricity, why doesn't any Power Cord mfg. point to a controlled listening trial where the improvement was proven to be audible?. ..And be doubly suspicious if the cord comes with instructions that mentions a break-in period. 

[Shakeydeal]

Quote

The future of this hobby depends, IMHO, on a degree of self-imposed validity and honesty tests/controls by reviewer, mfgs., and just a bit of skepticism from consumers..

 

See, you are intent in imposing your way of thinking as all or nothing. The future of this hobby is in danger, but it's not because of people hearing differences in amplifiers and power cords. Ours has always been a cottage industry. And within that lies another niche (tube lovers) and also another niche (vinyl lovers) etc.......

 

The future of this hobby is in danger for the same reason that the car enthusiast is slowly becoming a thing of the past. Most young people care nothing about even driving A car, much less a performance car. And they are also content with earbuds and an iphone, listening while doing "nothing" is so foreign to them it might as well be from another planet.

 

But you insist that beginners follow your mantra. I insist that they listen for themselves and make up their own minds. If better equipment doesn't sound "better", then they should spend their money the way they want to and pocket the savings. The future of this hobby has nothing to do with DBT. It has much to do with listening and trusting your ears.

 

Shakey

[ODS123]

21 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:

 

See, you are intent in imposing your way of thinking as all or nothing.

 

....The future of this hobby has nothing to do with DBT. It has much to do with listening and trusting your ears.

 

Shakey

 

No, I'm not intent on imposing my view, I'm simply trying to provide balance.  Looked at collectively, this and other audio forums are like 98% subjective impressions offered by people who don't give a wisp about validity testing.  ..So while my viewpoint may comprise a large part of this thread, this "objectivist" view (your description, not mine) is largely drowned out throughout audio blog-dom.  

 

And DBT isn't strictly necessary.  It would be a huge improvement if people would simply ask that the amps or speakers they are comparing are volume-matched using either a voltage meter (tougher to do) or using a db meter. .Just a modicum of validity testing is better than nothing.

 

 

 

[Thaddeus Smith]

Sound is objective and measurable. "Good sound" is entirely subjective.

[MEH Synergy]

Most young people care nothing about even driving A car, much less a performance car. And they are also content with earbuds and an iphone, listening while doing "nothing" is so foreign to them it might as well be from another planet.

 

WRONG on both accounts.   Do some research.   Have you been to SEMA in the last couple years?   There are plenty of younger people into hifI as well.   Not the 100k per pair of speakers hifI, but the hifI that you probably started with that will be built upon as I did.   

[mikebse2a3]

40 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

Beginners:

Before upgrading your power cord from the one included w/ your component ask yourself:  How is it possible that electricity travels through hundreds of miles of outdoor power line (with countless splices, with new ones possibly added after every power outage), then hundreds and hundreds of Romex in your home, and yet it is somehow improved by swapping the last three feet of cable b/w the wall and the component?  Please think hard on this before buying!  And again, if it did improve sound, why doesn't any Power Cord mfg. point to listening trial where the improvement was proven.  ..And be doubly suspicious if the cord comes with instructions that mentions a break-in period. 

One reason the last 3 ft can matter is noise interference introduction is possible at any point of the AC supply line to the equipment. Shielded AC cords can make an audible difference in such cases and it’s not heard as hum or buzz but an improvement in clarity/detail in the reproduction of the recording.

 

miketn

[Shakeydeal]

8 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

Most young people care nothing about even driving A car, much less a performance car. And they are also content with earbuds and an iphone, listening while doing "nothing" is so foreign to them it might as well be from another planet.

 

WRONG on both accounts.   Do some research.   Have you been to SEMA in the last couple years?   There are plenty of younger people into hifI as well.   Not the 100k per pair of speakers hifI, but the hifI that you probably started with that will be built upon as I did.   

 

I know there will always be some enthusiasts out there. But by and large, the numbers aren't there like they were when we (or at least I) grew up.

 

Remember when your uncle had an expensive stereo and  you drooled over it? Not much of that happening now. A nice stereo is not the status symbol it used to be. And a LOT of kids aren't in a hurry to get a DL when they are old enough. I couldn't wait to get out there and drive. Now some kids aren't even bothering until their 20s. That was unheard of when I was a teenager.

 

So at the risk of sounding like an old fart, things ain't what they used to be. Especially when it comes to niche hobbies. I'm not sure there will be enough interest in the next 20-30 years to keep audio manufacturers alive. And don't get me started on autonomous vehicles. A story for another day..........

 

Shakey

[MEH Synergy]

Fair enough. I think in order the keep thd industry alive, those manufacturers that can adapt will remain.  There will be a change in pricing and availability certainly.  I envision manufacturer to consumer direct with audio/trade shows becoming more prevelant.   Younger people nowadays seem to buy based much more on online reviews than anything else from my experience.   My unlce had PA scalas and khorns. And I did drool over them. He GAVE his LA scalas to my cousin..... They were mint and late 70s vintage.   Plenty of youngng people into performance cars.  The hifI industry has always been niche and I agree with you it will may struggle I nthe coming time.   Time will tell. I will certainly be into it for thr rest of my life and continue to try to bring as many people into the hobby as possible.   Thus far I have succeeded more than a handful of times to hook plenty permamanetly. 

[Deang]

29 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:

One reason the last 3 ft can matter is noise interference introduction is possible at any point of the AC supply line to the equipment. Shielded AC cords can make an audible difference in such cases and it’s not heard as hum or buzz but an improvement in clarity/detail in the reproduction of the recording.

 

miketn

I was going to say the same. This applies to interconnects and video cables too. Laying a power cord with poor shielding over an interconnect with equally poor shielding is asking for trouble. I've seen a lot of setups where the back of the stand looks like a rats nest.

[Deang]

1 hour ago, Thaddeus Smith said:

Sound is objective and measurable. "Good sound" is entirely subjective.

And while one can tell you a lot about the other, but it isn't a good predictor of a person will prefer.

[Deang]

51 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

No, I'm not intent on imposing my view, I'm simply trying to provide balance. Looked at collectively, this and other audio forums are like 98% subjective impressions offered by people who don't give a wisp about validity testing.

Well, that's the point -- sharing impressions, which usually goes beyond SQ.

 

Common sense should tell you that two things built using different parts, different topologies, and different measurements - will not sound the same.

[Deang]

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 10:22 AM, ODS123 said:

But the audible differences made by rest of your components, including amplifier cd player, DAC ... are negligible.  So negligible, in fact, that there is considerable debate whether they are audible at all. 

Well, we started here, and it was the only thing I wanted to address. I believe the position does a real disservice to designers and manufacturers, and is misleading to those who are looking for something that will truly engage them.

 

I almost forgot to mention this; the higher the sensitivity of the loudspeaker, the more revealing it is. Few things sound worse to me than a mid-tier receiver through a pair of LaScalas or Klipschorns. The sound is barely passable!

[Shakeydeal]

2 minutes ago, Deang said:

Well, we started here, and it was the only thing I wanted to address. I believe the position does a real disservice to designers and manufacturers, and is misleading to those who are really looking for something that will truly engage them.

 

I almost forgot to mention this; the higher the sensitivity of the loudspeaker, the more revealing it is. Few things sound worse to me than a mid-tier receiver through a pair of LaScalas or Klipschorns. The sound is barely passable!

 

I have very little patience for people who say "it all sounds the same". But as God is my witness, I try. Boy do I try.......

 

 

[Dave A]

On 11/6/2018 at 12:07 PM, babadono said:

Where a horn loaded system will outshine others IMHO.

It will outshine anywhere. Although I have to admit a set of KPT-456's beats a KHorn.

[ODS123]

1 hour ago, Deang said:

Well, we started here, and it was the only thing I wanted to address. I believe the position does a real disservice to designers and manufacturers, and is misleading to those who are really looking for something that will truly engage them.

 

I almost forgot to mention this; the higher the sensitivity of the loudspeaker, the more revealing it is. Few things sound worse to me than a mid-tier receiver through a pair of LaScalas or Klipschorns. The sound is barely passable!

 

I have driven my Cornwall III's w/ an Onkyo TX-NR1030 AVR for weeks while my Mac was being serviced.  It sounded awesome (..actually, identical to the Mac).  While I could hear slightly more hiss with the volume cranked, source paused, and my ears pressed to the tweeter horn, the S/N ratio is excellent; there is no way this would be audible at the listening position while music is playing.  It is quiet, it can drive the Klipsch's to "hear it down the block" levels without hint of strain, it and has an awesome feature set. And the build quality - while not quite the level of the Mac - is impressive.  ..When used for movies, my son's crank it to near Theater levels and is has never overheated or shut down.   A "set it and forget" music lover would find this an excellent choice, apart perhaps, from the fact that is 7.1 channel rather than 2 (or 2.1)   ..And no one in my family, all of whom are music fanatics and have a keen sense for musical nuance, could hear one iota of difference b/w it and the Mac. 

 

 

[Deang]

4 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

I have driven my Cornwall III's w/ an Onkyo TX-NR1030 AVR for weeks while my Mac was being serviced.  It sounded awesome (..actually, identical to the Mac).

Did you match the output levels to .05dB of one another and do a DBT?

[Shakeydeal]

Quote

I have driven my Cornwall III's w/ an Onkyo TX-NR1030 AVR for weeks while my Mac was being serviced.  It sounded awesome

 

We obviously have different interpretations of this word. Differences in tonal shadings, timing, inner detail, soundstage presence (3 dimensional and/or depth) just don't matter to some listeners. I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you are one of those listeners.

 

Shakey

[Thaddeus Smith]

[richieb]

27 minutes ago, Deang said:

Well, that's the point -- sharing impressions, which usually goes beyond SQ.

 

Common sense should tell you that two things built using different parts, different topologies, and different measurements - will not sound the same.

 

=== So true. I’ve owned several Nelson Pass designed/built amplifiers where each one used different parts, topologies, etc. and for sure each one sounds different. Not psychologically different but audibly different. And all sounded very good in their “different” way —

[ODS123]

50 minutes ago, richieb said:

 

 Not psychologically different but audibly different.

 

 

Well, so you say.   But without any effort made to compare these without knowing which you're hearing, I'd say it's expectation bias.  Or perhaps Nelson amps are non-linear devices, which I can't imagine ANY audiophile would want.  Better to have a linear amplifier, then use an equalizer to tip or dip certain frequencies according to taste.

 

To Beginners!!

 

Remember, at the start of this I referenced the $10,000 reward that was offered by Richard Clark to any golden-eared audiophile who could reliably differentiate b/w two amplifiers, provided they were engineered to be linear and they weren't driven into clipping.  ..No one claimed the money.   And you can be quite sure that everyone who took this test felt the same way as many here:  "of course, i can tell a difference!"

 

http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/