adam2434 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 Our RF-7 III’s are in a 2-channel system used for audio and video content (we have a separate 5.1 system in the basement). Most of the time when this system is used, I am on the left side of the couch and my wife is on the right side. If I am alone, I sit in the middle of the couch, which is one the centerline of the TV and speakers. When I sit in the middle, the center image is fine. However, when I sit on the left, there is no center image and the left speaker dominates. This is becoming increasingly annoying, now that my brain is in-tune to it. It’s like I’m only hearing the left friggin’ speaker. Interestingly, if I slowly turn my head to the left, there is a point where the sound will become centered between the speakers. I’m sure this does not bother my wife on the right side, as she could care less about the sound. I recently increased the toe-in from converging a couple feet behind the couch to now converging slightly in front of the center listening position. This really did not help. And man, the RF-7 III are a pain to adjust by yourself on carpet with the spikes installed. I basically palm the sides of them, lift, place, then repeat until I get both to the same dimensions from the back wall. From what I’ve read so far, sounds like I need to try extreme toe-in, with the speakers converging several feet in front of the center listening position (not looking forward to moving the speakers again!). This extreme toe-in will look strange in the room, but I think I need to try it. However, does this extreme toe-in narrow the soundstage, especially when seated in the center position? I’m wondering if the extreme toe-in makes off-center imaging better, but shrinks the soundstage. Thanks for any input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEH Synergy Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 Toe OUT will give you a wider sweet spot. Toe in will reduce it. Do what I do. Move your couch so the left seat on your couch is in the middle. Or... Use balance controls if you have them temporarily when it irritates you. Otherwise, don't know what to tell you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam2434 Posted November 14, 2018 Author Share Posted November 14, 2018 This article talks about the benefits of extreme toe in for good imaging across multiple positions. http://libinst.com/PublicArticles/Setup of WG Speakers.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 I actually believe that your solution is three-channel stereo--by adding a (good) center channel and mixing the left and right channels into mono (either as PWK recommended), or by using an AVP or AVR and using a center channel synthesis mode. The extreme toe-in thing only works for loudspeakers having beaming issues. For instance, it doesn't work on K-402s very well since their polars are solid out to 45 degrees with almost no drop-off in SPL vs. frequency. Stereo has limitations...and you just found one of them. Chris 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 4 hours ago, adam2434 said: I’m sure this does not bother my wife on the right side, as she could care less about the sound. You are preaching to the choir, my friend. I have RF-83's and my wife says she can't hear the difference between them and and the AM radio in her car. Like you my first instinct is to use toe-in (aim towards opposite listeners) and arrange the speakers in an equilateral triangle to the MLP. As an alternative I am also a fan of 3.1 sound as the center speaker anchors the center sound by combining the L/R signal.What do you think of the idea @Chris A suggested? Do you think it might help to pick up a third RF-7 III or RC-7 III RC-64 III? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 The best center channel acoustically is another front loudspeaker type. Then you don't have phase, different height above floor, or timbre issues. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiva Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 How about taking the center seat while the wife is on the couch as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam2434 Posted November 14, 2018 Author Share Posted November 14, 2018 It's funny...I have had several different floorstanders in this system over the years (RF-7 III, RF-7 II, RP-280F, Def Tech BP-10B, and Energy RC-70), and for some reason, I'm only noticing the extreme lack of off-center imaging with the RF-7 III. Could be a coincidence or could be something specific to the RF-7 III. I have to live with 2.0 in this system due to space constraints. Maybe I'll just migrate over to the center position and crowd my wife to the right. Maybe she will think I'm just trying to snuggle...nah, she knows me better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricktate Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 Are you sure those are hooked in phase ? I have done it myself and its easy to over look. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 3 hours ago, Westcoastdrums said: Use balance controls if you have them temporarily when it irritates you. What a concept. Seriously, in my living room stereo rig I sit a little off center on my sofa and utilize the well designed balance/tone controls of my Yamaha A-S1000 and it is pin point accurate center imaging with my RB-75s. Bill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuzzzer Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 2 hours ago, wvu80 said: Do you think it might help to pick up a third RF-7 III or RC-7 III? No such thing as an RC-7 III. You'll want an RC-64 III if you add a center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, wuzzzer said: No such thing as an RC-7 III. You'll want an RC-64 III if you add a center. Of course you're right. I'm scatter brained lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam2434 Posted November 14, 2018 Author Share Posted November 14, 2018 1 hour ago, ricktate said: Are you sure those are hooked in phase ? I have done it myself and its easy to over look. Yeah, they are in phase. Center image is fine in center listening position, and bass is also not lacking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiva Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 1 hour ago, adam2434 said: It's funny...I have had several different floorstanders in this system over the years (RF-7 III, RF-7 II, RP-280F, Def Tech BP-10B, and Energy RC-70), and for some reason, I'm only noticing the extreme lack of off-center imaging with the RF-7 III. Could be a coincidence or could be something specific to the RF-7 III. I have to live with 2.0 in this system due to space constraints. Maybe I'll just migrate over to the center position and crowd my wife to the right. Maybe she will think I'm just trying to snuggle...nah, she knows me better. Just tell her the truth, I got to sit in the sweet spot, its an audio thing, don't get any ideas. 😀 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YK Thom Posted November 14, 2018 Share Posted November 14, 2018 You may be a bit too close to them in relation to their spacing apart from each other. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam2434 Posted November 15, 2018 Author Share Posted November 15, 2018 24 minutes ago, YK Thom said: You may be a bit too close to them in relation to their spacing apart from each other. Speakers are about 8 feet apart and distance to couch is 12 feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam2434 Posted November 15, 2018 Author Share Posted November 15, 2018 I am a little surprised that extreme toe-in per the time-intensity trading principle is not a popular reco here. Perhaps folks have tried it and it didn't work, or they didn't like it for other reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptorman Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 While you're playing with placement, you might remove the spikes, find the sweet spot, then place them back on spikes. It will make moving them much easier, and wear and tear on your carpet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam2434 Posted November 15, 2018 Author Share Posted November 15, 2018 7 minutes ago, Ceptorman said: While you're playing with placement, you might remove the spikes, find the sweet spot, then place them back on spikes. It will make moving them much easier, and wear and tear on your carpet. Yep, I thought of that after I did a bunch of shoulder isometrics last Saturday. 😣 Great idea! I work out several times a week, but felt like I did 20 sets of shrugs after moving, adjusting, moving, adjusting them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEH Synergy Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 They are easy to move even with spikes if you pivot them on one spike and walk them. I would remove and find proper position first and then reinstall them to make life easy however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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