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Roby Italy

Upgrade La Scala

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Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum, I'm Roberto and I write from Italy, I have been the owner of La Scala1979 for many years and I think the time has come to update this fantastic speaker, I have already replaced the Crossover with Bob's which are very famous here in Italy, rewired with quality cables and covered the entire internal speaker, now having gone from a tube amplifier to a solid state amplifier (or perhaps because of a lack of my hearing) I feel a lack of bass, after reading here on your forum many discussions on the changes to the bottom of this speaker without very satisfactory results I ask the more experienced of you what they think of my idea of replacing the old K33E (square magnet) with the new Radian 2216NEO:
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Ps: I immediately ask for forgiveness for my bad English and being new for the mistakes that I will make. Thank you all.

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26 minutes ago, Roby Italy said:

I have already  covered the entire internal speaker, now having gone from a tube amplifier to a solid state amplifier (or perhaps because of a lack of my hearing) I feel a lack of bass, after reading here on your forum many discussions on the changes to the bottom of this speaker without very satisfactory results I ask the more experienced of you what they think of my idea of replacing the old K33E (square magnet) with the new Radian 2216NEO:

the K33  Square magnet woofer is not the problem ,  these are fantastic woofers , they are used in Cornwalls etc -( unless the woofer needs to be reconed ) 

 

-but 1)  covering the internal speaker may not be a very good idea  -

2) you were running a class A tubes amplifier    -------and your SS amp is not a Classe A amp    -I would switch  amps and re-test  , if the tubes amp gives the same lack of bass , then the problem is either the covering of the internal speaker , the crossover or the wiring is no good for the bass -

 

  the K33 is the best bass option for the LaScala , Industrial versions of the La Scala use the K43 because it can use 2x the power , but it also has less bass -----

-the ideal solution for the lack of bass  is a plain subwoofer or 2  , this will give much better results than a Ported Scala----------again the limitations are the box and not the woofer,  unless your woofers are very tired  , the newer K33 are the best option , and remember that not all types of woofers woofers fit in a Lascala -   -

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Hi and thanks for your attention, the bituminous foam insulation work concerns the upper part of the speaker (the middle horn and the casing that contains it), the work was done before moving on to solid state amplification and La Scala was better, I intend to keep this amplification configuration because it gives me more satisfactions at high volume, the woofers have been controlled externally and the cone is perfect, but perhaps it would be appropriate to perform some electrical measurements on them?

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45 minuti fa, Randyh ha detto:

e ricorda che non tutti i tipi di woofer woofer si adatta a un Lascala - -

Questo woofer Rdian su carta è davvero fantastico e i parametri T&S sembrano adattarsi bene all'altoparlante, l'unico dubbio che avevo era sull'efficienza molto esuberante alle basse frequenze con la possibilità di creare vibrazioni indesiderate nell'armadio.

Edited by Roby Italy

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8 hours ago, Roby Italy said:

Hi and thanks for your attention, the bituminous foam insulation work concerns the upper part of the speaker (the middle horn and the casing that contains it), the work was done before moving on to solid state amplification and La Scala was better, I intend to keep this amplification configuration because it gives me more satisfactions at high volume, the woofers have been controlled externally and the cone is perfect, but perhaps it would be appropriate to perform some electrical measurements on them?

puoi pubblicare alcune foto delle modifiche che hai apportato finora?

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Ciao, ho provato a caricare le foto ma sono troppo grandi, c'è un altro sistema per poterle mostrare?

Edited by Roby Italy

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La Scala is not known for deep bass.  The bass horn is too small.  The compromise is punchy bass.  

 

The best you can hope for with an unmodified speaker can be done by tone controls.  Otherwise you could look on the forum for the port modifications and / or crossover changes though you will not get deep bass with the standard horn loaded enclosure.

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I have never demanded a full-bodied bass from my LS but I cannot accept that from the passage of amplification there has been such a radical change at low volumes that Before I had not

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I agree with those who say to leave the K-33 woofers alone.  Perhaps the Crites crossovers restored the sparkle that was missing with the original networks and their old capacitors.  If the mids and highs were subdued by the old networks, you might have adjusted the volume to compensate, which would have effectively boosted the bass.  The inductors in the bass portion of the networks do not age like capacitors.  Restoring (boosting) the mids and highs will make the bass seem relatively lower.

 

As one who has done the djk La Scala bass reflex mod, I would not recommended it to you.  It has it’s place, but, in your situation, a proper subwoofer is a better solution to augment La Scala bass.

 

I can understand why many are perfectly happy with the quality of La Scala bass, and do not feel the need for the missing lower bass.  Apparently, you’re not happy with La Scala bass. In your case, I suggest a subwoofer, or two, to provide the missing low bass.  In my opinion, it is best to utilize horn loaded subs or tapped horn subs to best integrate with La Scalas.

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On 1/13/2020 at 5:51 AM, pzannucci said:

La Scala is not known for deep bass.  The bass horn is too small.  The compromise is punchy bass.

 

 

Help me understand this as I have been giving bass cabs a lot of thought. Sealed and BR designs. LS LF cab is horn loaded yes, but the horn config does not amplify or alter the frequency response generated by the transducer itself. A horn loaded cab is not an amplifier. What it does is focus or precisely "aim" the acoustic energy versus say a direct radiator cab. It performs like a megaphone. Show me any sealed cabinet home loudspeaker manufactured today which reproduces with authority < 50 hz in test data.

 

Not to mention DSP utilized in many sub amps today. Or active XOs, and bi or tri amping used with some high end home loudspeaker systems.

 

Bass reflex cab is tuned to effectively reproduce sound lower than 50hz in the input signal. This tuning, port size, and cab volume is critical. BR also utilizes acoustic energy from both sides of the transducer radiating surface, where as a sealed cab only uses the front radiating surface transmitted to listener. By design the BR cab offers the listener more acoustic output vs a sealed cab. No doubt this is a prime reason Klipsch has gone to BR cab in the latest Heresy IV.

 

But this also leads me to ponder utilizing both sides of the transducer radiating surface (front and rear surfaces). In essence the rear movement is an echo of the original sound wave generated by the outward movement of the transducer cone. Grant you speed of sound is ~ 1100 feet per second (fast) but its still an echo of the original signal. Also reflected in @Chris A latency test results he posted about a month ago of his former CWs and his Jubes in a graph. I have to add I was surprised the latency of the CW  LF was not actually worse  compared to his mighty jubes. A testament to PWK's original design and execution. And remember PWK in his early days didn't have computer power, software processing, and modeling/testing/sampling of today's technology. 

 

Since I have been a member here at the forum, a couple members have called CW bass "flabby" vs LS. Clearly some members here have extensive experience both hands on and listening experiences vs myself. Multiple systems, annual get togethers, classes @ Klipsch, equipment reviews and demos.

 

Welcome any comments or discussion on this topic as it helps my learning process here. I know @ClaudeJ1  has a tremendous experience and knowledge of BR reflex cabs as shown in his Super Hersey mod and sub discussions. I'm sure many here would learn from this discussion.

 

 

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5 hours ago, pzannucci said:

La Scala is not known for deep bass.  The bass horn is too small.  The compromise is punchy bass.  

 

 

So your saying if the bass horn cab was much larger, it would alter the frequency response of the transducer?

 

You need to explain that to me.

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36 minutes ago, polizzio said:

A horn loaded cab is not an amplifier.

I always have considered horns passive amplifiers.

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Just now, CECAA850 said:

I always have considered horns passive amplifiers.

 

Why? Does it actually increase the acoustic output from the transducer?

 

I don't think so.

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3 minutes ago, polizzio said:

 

Why? Does it actually increase the acoustic output from the transducer?

 

 

What do you think the horns function is?  Do you think a transducer in free air or mounted to a baffle has the same output (at the same distortion) than a transducer mounted to a horn?  What am I missing here?  If you increase efficiency don't you in turn increase output for the wattage the transducer can handle?

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10 minutes ago, CECAA850 said:

What do you think the horns function is?  Do you think a transducer in free air or mounted to a baffle has the same output (at the same distortion) than a transducer mounted to a horn?  What am I missing here?  If you increase efficiency don't you in turn increase output for the wattage the transducer can handle?

 

I clearly stated the horns purpose above. To precisely  focus the acoustic energy of the transducer. It does not actually increase the transducer's acoustic output. Same transducer @ same power generates the same acoustic energy in a direct radiator cab .....its just diffused or dispersed differently. DR diffused in a wide pattern. No "megaphone" effect.

 

If you google search there is no such thing as a passive amplifier. An amplifier requires an energy source to amplify an input signal.

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24 minutes ago, polizzio said:

 

So your saying if the bass horn cab was much larger, it would alter the frequency response of the transducer?

 

You need to explain that to me.

 

The length of the horn has a large impact on frequency response, low frequency sound waves are long so they need a longer horn.

 

A horn is an amplifier by definition.

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2 minutes ago, jason str said:

 

The length of the horn has a large impact on frequency response, low frequency sound waves are long so they need a longer horn.

 

A horn is an amplifier by definition.

 

So based on that theory, generating a 10 hz signal in headphones or earbuds is impossible?

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I think that the acoustic phenomenon that is being searched for here is "transformer".  Horns are acoustic transformers.  They also give directivity gain, like was pointed out above, but the major effect is the transformer effect due to the horn.  Here is an excerpt from Bruce Edgar's trip to Hope to interview PWK for Speaker Builder Magazine in 1989 that shows you the difference between a direct radiating woofer and the same woofer being used behind a proper horn:  https://community.klipsch.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=96455

 

 

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4 minutes ago, polizzio said:

 

So based on that theory, generating a 10 hz signal in headphones or earbuds is impossible?

 

With a horn ?

 

I never said that and no its not.

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3 minutes ago, jason str said:

 

The length of the horn has a large impact on frequency response, low frequency sound waves are long so they need a longer horn.

 

A horn is an amplifier by definition.

 

So how does my sealed cab direct radiator SVS SB-3000 sub generate a 25 hz signal?  It has no horn.

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