karlson3 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 I've lost a pc with hornresp sims and will have to look up the model and do it over again - John Allen's paper compared the MCM basshorn to direct radiator with regards to modulation distortion. (the horn was squeaky clean) http://www.hps4000.com/pages/special/woofer_distortion.pdf IIRC Reuben Guss, who went way back, was into slot loading speakers and had patents with woofers used perhaps something like Nestorovic did later on. Look at this patent image by Guss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 1 hour ago, CECAA850 said: I'll bet it was SLIGHTLY larger than the box pictured above. In addition, when that speaker was built the drivers didn't have near the excursion needed as the drivers today do. There's absolutely, positively no way that box is flat to 12Hz. Slot loaded? Whoopie. I'd be amazed if it was flat to 25Hz. My Tapped Horn is over 20 Cubic feet and barely makes it to 12 Hz. I do follow Hoffman's Law. Tapped horns offer the lowest bass performance with the least cubic feet, but can give up about 10 DB of sensitivity in the process. That being said, I use 100 Watts instead of 10 Watts in a Tuba or F-20 Full horn to shake the house. YMMV depending on how big your room is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 24 minutes ago, karlson3 said: I've lost a pc with hornresp sims and will have to look up the model and do it over again - John Allen's paper compared the MCM basshorn to direct radiator with regards to modulation distortion. (the horn was squeaky clean) http://www.hps4000.com/pages/special/woofer_distortion.pdf IIRC Reuben Guss, who went way back, was into slot loading speakers and had patents with woofers used perhaps something like Nestorovic did later on. I have owned several pairs of MWM's and designed the Quarter Pie Horn, which was a very good performer. The MWM is a 6 foot horn, and the design I did for DaveA is a 9 foot long Horn. It's really EXPENSIVE in Lumber and Cubic feet of space to get down to 30 hz. which is all Dave wanted and he didn't want to use Subwoofers. To keep this somewhat relevant to the tread, I should add that having a BANDPASS filter, using Inductors and Capacitors would result in a Crossover which is far more expensive than purchasing a modern Digital Speaker Controller from Xilica, EV, Yamaha, Rane, Ashely, and others. Rigma spent about $3,000 on his 2-way passive networks for a pair of Jubilee Clones. They are large, and heavy "works of art" and are prominently displayed on the side walls of his All Jubilee HT. While they sound wonderful, they still don't have the Time Align aspect that comes with the use of Active Crossovers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 I sure hope there isn't anyone that will take anything Jeffrey (our self appointed genius) posts here seriously. To totally ignore virtually any and all scientific facts makes any creditably almost impossible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson3 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 a robust 30Hz should work well enough with theater organ recordings. @ClaudeJ1 - what does the 30Hz horn look like? One advantage of tapped horn or pipe is the long path/ quarter-wave structure generally allows more exit area, and thus less compression and air velocity than an equivalent reflex's vent. btw, the original Karlson box (aka "K15" ) with some woofers will have 10dB less sideband intensity than reflex when driven with two tone sine. My apologies if I have Dave A basshorn's model wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 1 hour ago, karlson3 said: @ClaudeJ1 - what does the 30Hz horn look like? 5x5 ft, 21 inches tall. or 30 Cubic feet, triangular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 1 hour ago, karlson3 said: a robust 30Hz should work well enough with theater organ recordings. I believe that organs will go down to 16Hz. Dave Mallette always used K-horns to listen to organ music and never realized what he was missing till he came to my house and listened to the same recordings on my system which uses an IB for bass. I ended up building him a cinema F-20 shortly after that listening session. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 2 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: I believe that organs will go down to 16Hz. Dave Mallette always used K-horns to listen to organ music and never realized what he was missing till he came to my house and listened to the same recordings on my system which uses an IB for bass. I ended up building him a cinema F-20 shortly after that listening session. I didn't listen to many organ recordings, but the LFE channels of Movies convinced me that ALL speakers need subwoofers, even my Khorns at the time, before I moved up to larger Pro stuff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 6 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said: I didn't listen to many organ recordings, but the LFE channels of Movies convinced me that ALL speakers need subwoofers, even my Khorns at the time, before I moved up to larger Pro stuff. Agreed. PM sent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 2 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said: Hey Dave A, When I see your inane posts, and a list of a system : Double Stack Three Way MCM 1900 2 conductor 12g lamp cord Crown xli800 or Integra 50.4 Dell 3620 Workstation Sometimes ear plugs. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I immediately know - its a waste of time. Post on, I have better things to do . Jeff Medwin You kill me Jeffro!! I have three of those marvels of your's collecting dust. I guess I am not smart enough to know what I have but they sure did not sound like world beaters to me. Of course I have not done those improvements of your's so there is that to consider, JEFF. Might have these restored in late spring if you are interested in getting more of these. I have a bunch of woofers to but they were to buried behind 3rd rate Klipsch things to get pictures of. How many concrete blocks should I put on the MWM bins so they will sound better is what I want to know. I was thinking I might need more than four support golf balls too 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson3 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 a solid 16Hz would be excellent for organ - there probably are some small theater organs which only go to ~31Hz. In a modest sized room, I liked running a re-tuned Karlson cabinet like John Tucker did with "Exemplar" - it needs two 3"ID pvc elbows, and low fs Altec speaker plus some boost at fb (like a 6th order assisted reflex) I don't know why it sounded so good as looks like the front chamber would be out of the action (?) with an 80Hz crossover. Here's the impedance with 421 Altec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 2 hours ago, CECAA850 said: I'll bet it was SLIGHTLY larger than the box pictured above. In addition, when that speaker was built the drivers didn't have near the excursion needed as the drivers today do. There's absolutely, positively no way that box is flat to 12Hz. Slot loaded? Whoopie. I'd be amazed if it was flat to 25Hz. BOX + PAVERS! + 8g MIL spec wire. How do you know it won't work until you try it😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 7 minutes ago, karlson3 said: a solid 16Hz would be excellent for organ - there probably are some small theater organs which only go to ~31Hz. In a modest sized room, I liked running a re-tuned Karlson cabinet like John Tucker did with "Exemplar" - it needs two 3"ID pvc elbows, and low fs Altec speaker plus some boost at fb (like a 6th order assisted reflex) I don't know why it sounded so good as looks like the front chamber would be out of the action (?) with an 80Hz crossover. Here's the impedance with 421 Altec. Organ music is what started me down the path to the Super MWM's. The bass notes through the MWM with the MCM 1900 are not super deep but they have real authority and I figure the S-MWM's down to 27hz usable will be all I ever need. I have some EV TL440's here and they go down to 20hz but they just hurt to listen to too me. I don't have enough experience with subs to know if these are just poor subs or that I just don't like sound that low. The EV's came out of a movie theater so I guess they were supposed to be good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson3 Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 hey Dave A - re: VOTT - wonder if Tom Danley ever published his crossover for it running JBL 2226 and BMS 4550 - ? TD sure can blend things - Maybe I'll ask at AA George Wright should be great on your horns http://www.hostboard.com/forums/f700/167046-tom-danley-mods-altec-vot-a7-post1733466.html?s=44cb123c2855767d9d50b8ac1fac7829#post1733466 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 19 minutes ago, karlson3 said: hey Dave A - re: VOTT - wonder if Tom Danley ever published his crossover for it running JBL 2226 and BMS 4550 - ? TD sure can blend things - Maybe I'll ask at AA George Wright should be great on your horns http://www.hostboard.com/forums/f700/167046-tom-danley-mods-altec-vot-a7-post1733466.html?s=44cb123c2855767d9d50b8ac1fac7829#post1733466 These are nice sounding speakers just not my cup of tea considering what else I have access to. The crossovers in these is as basic as you can get. I will have a look over there and I know there has been a renewed interest in fixing these up lately. I just have to many things going on to worry about these right now. OK I just went there to have a look. I think I will stick with stock and refinish and leave them be. That is enough change that I would not be selling A7's any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson3 Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 what I was wondering was - might Danley's xover approach work with the stock Altec drivers (?) Here's Danley's comments on his JBL version https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/201951-altec-lansing-vott-clones-post2809414.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 11 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said: Actually, there is a good possibility your own speaker, depending upon model and its design, can not be time aligned at all. Oh, I'm sure it's beyond just a possibility. Even were I to attempt to address that issue it could only be at one almost atomically small location in my room, seeing how the range of frequencies are shared between 3 drivers. I find my system entertaining enough even if not entirely realistic in even most respects. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 22 hours ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said: OK Mike, I don't understand the point you are trying to make to me !! I align it near field, its clearly audible there, as did Marvel, and its correct far field. If its NOT aligned near field, it will likewise not be aligned far field. Common sense, IMHO, no need to quote Mr. Heyser. How do you align yours?? Are you able to?? Jeff Medwin Yes I time align using a EV DC-One DSP. This allows the ability to hear and optimize the time alignment without interference issues caused when physical alignment of drivers are varied. Jeff I have built and owned many 2A3 amplifiers since about 1990 and consider well designed ones as some of my favorite amplifiers to use within their limitations. These are in my collection currently: Cary CAD2A3i P/P (modified) used on Jub LF with Cary CAD 2A3 SE mono blocs (modified) are used on the on the K402/TAD TD4002 HF when I want to play with Tubes on the Jubs. By the way this older picture also shows First Watt F3 amplifiers (single ended/ single gain stage) in a vertical bi-amp implementation with the Jubilee and they are also excellent IMHO and rival the 2A3 amplifiers I own. Currently I'm using McIntosh MHA100 amplifiers in vertical bi-amp configuration on the Jubs and again IMHO are every bit equal rivals to the other amplifiers I own when used with my Jubs. miketn 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave A Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 10 hours ago, karlson3 said: what I was wondering was - might Danley's xover approach work with the stock Altec drivers (?) Here's Danley's comments on his JBL version https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/201951-altec-lansing-vott-clones-post2809414.html Are there any threads where he describes what he did to crossovers with schematics? This I am interested in since I can bypass the original and leave everything in place for those purists who want it just like it was made. Sounds like you have researched this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glens Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 An off-the-cuff search on my part didn't discover T. D. elaborating on that (my interest is purely academic). BTW, Jeff "liked" one of my responses to him! I'm good for the rest of the year! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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