Are Your Capacitors Installed Backwards ??

[Dave A]

13 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

Hi Mike,

 

Q1) 800 hZ.

 

Q2)  You adjust the two drivers to each other, their voice coils' alignments to each other.  You do not adjust where you sit,  to 1/16th of an inch.

 

Jeff 

 If I am in a rocking chair and I rock back and forth while listening will this hurt the sound quality? Does the size of the arc on the rocker base also affect the sound?

[Marvel]

I manually aligned the tweeter and mid on my LaScalas (tweeter mounted on a separate baffle). Imaging was much better. Fed with my 2A3 amp, really easy to hear it when they get closer together.

 

Rocking your chair won't matter when the drivers stay in the right spot.

[Dave A]

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=hug&m=177452

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/should-we-put-weights-on-speakers.753073/

[karlson3]

to further wreck this thread - I offer this wonderful short 1916 film starring Douglas Fairbanks as the crack sleuth "Coke Ennyday"

 

[mikebse2a3]

1 hour ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

Hi Mike,

 

Q1) 800 hZ.

 

Q2)  You adjust the two drivers to each other, their voice coils' alignments to each other.  You do not adjust where you sit,  to 1/16th of an inch.

 

Jeff 

 

 Hey Jeff,

 

Time of alignment as perceived by the listeners ear/brain means where you sit(ie: ear's location) in relation to the two drivers is a critical component for what you might or might not be able to perceive.

 

I assume you are trying to bring the two drivers into time alignment at the 800 Hz crossover region if not what are you trying to achieve by aligning the voice coils?

 

1/16th of an inch at 800 Hz ( wave lengths = 16.95" ) is insignificant and would be impossible to maintain when the two drivers are separated in the vertical plane or horizontal plane or both planes unless you are willing to put your head in a vise .

 

 

miketn

 

 

 

 

[mikebse2a3]

1 hour ago, Marvel said:

I manually aligned the tweeter and mid on my LaScalas (tweeter mounted on a separate baffle). Imaging was much better. Fed with my 2A3 amp, really easy to hear it when they get closer together.

 

Rocking your chair won't matter when the drivers stay in the right spot.

 

Hmmm.....Hey Marvel I have no doubt you heard some difference when you shifted your mid/tweeter alignment but do you really think you can hear a 1/16th inch shift in your tweeter/mid alignment..? Have you actually tried that..?

 

One of the problems with physically changing the time alignment of the two drivers is you haven't just affected the time alignment but you have also changed the physical position of the driver relative to it's mounting boundaries/environment and the effects that has on both the on and off axis frequency response of the system so what a listener perceives might be time alignment or boundary effects or most likely a combination of both.

 

miketn

 

 

[mikebse2a3]

1 hour ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

Hi Mike, 

 

You  don't have the full picture.  Time alignment starts at the drivers' wave launch, and requires multiple driver's  voice coils to be in the same exact alignment.   Don't over-complicate it. 

 

Jeff 😄

 

“Don’t over-complicate it”......I’m not you are over-simplifying it if you are ignoring where the ear is located when you are aligning it.... !

 

Perception of Time alignment starts with the apparent source location which can vary with frequency (See Richard C Heyser works with Time Delay Spectrometry ) in drivers and horns and ends at the listener’s ears/brain (and their location relative to the sources being aligned) and cannot be ignored or dismissed for convience when it comes to our perception abilities.

 

miketn

[glens]

Jeff, are you forgetting that in a double 2nd-order crossover the lows, by the inductors, are delaying the signal by 90 degrees and the highs, by the caps, are advancing the signal by 90 degrees?  That's half a wavelength (~8" @ 800 Hz) electrical waveform separation.  So to get it right, for a starting point, you'd set the HF voice coil 8" behind the LF voice coil.

[Islander]

5 hours ago, karlson3 said:

to further wreck this thread - I offer this wonderful short 1916 film starring Douglas Fairbanks as the crack sleuth "Coke Ennyday"

 

 

Great movie!  Luckily, they kept the drug references to a minimum, or the movie would never have been made.

[glens]

Jeff, how can you possibly claim 1/16" when you're off by 8"?

 

Your discourse reminds me of how I thought I was doing things on my bicycle very early on, which, once I learned a little more about gravity and two-wheeled dynamics, I discovered I could in fact not do (or have done) because it was impossible.

 

For each element in a low-pass filter there is, in fact, a 45 degree electrical phase shift delay.  Likewise for a high-pass but in that case it's an advance by that much for each element.  These are matters of absolute certainty whether or not you want them to be.  180 degrees of current waveform separation results in 180 degrees of sound wave separation because it's the current patterns in the voice coils which cause the drivers to produce motion, thus sound waves.  Sorry to rain on your parade, buddy.

 

I'd love to hear your system.  I'm sure it sounds like no other.

[Dave A]

I have questions for you Jeff. In your world of absolute sound perfection how come you never tried using 1/2 or 1/4 blocks? Sound is not an incremental thing whereby blocks can be evenly used I am sure and wouldn't fractional block sizes help to better tune the cabinet? I see the golf ball supports are flipped over here. Did this work for you or did you end up going back to your current tape down ball up because it did not? How do you determine the angle of the horn relative to your listening area? This reminds me I forgot to ask you why you did not use 8g wire in these first two photos? Also did you remove most of the top cabinet in the last picture to stifle resonance or was there another reason? How come you did not leave the cabinet intact and load it up with pavers too? Do you prefer a modular motorboard over a monlithic motorboard?

[Marvel]

9 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

 

Hmmm.....Hey Marvel I have no doubt you heard some difference when you shifted your mid/tweeter alignment but do you really think you can hear a 1/16th inch shift in your tweeter/mid alignment..? Have you actually tried that..?

 

One of the problems with physically changing the time alignment of the two drivers is you haven't just affected the time alignment but you have also changed the physical position of the driver relative to it's mounting boundaries/environment and the effects that has on both the on and off axis frequency response of the system so what a listener perceives might be time alignment or boundary effects or most likely a combination of both.

 

miketn

 

 

 

Mike,

I doubt very much I could hear that short a distance change, and yes, the larger horn probably also made a difference.

But it sounds better. I would guess some impulse plots would show the phase differences.

 

It wasn't a hard project to try.

 

Bruce

[Alexander]

9 hours ago, glens said:

Jeff, are you forgetting that in a double 2nd-order crossover the lows, by the inductors, are delaying the signal by 90 degrees and the highs, by the caps, are advancing the signal by 90 degrees?  That's half a wavelength (~8" @ 800 Hz) electrical waveform separation.  So to get it right, for a starting point, you'd set the HF voice coil 8" behind the LF voice coil.

 .

Are you trying to confuse our Jeffrey with the facts again?

[CECAA850]

Here's a waste of time.  Thinking two 12's in a box that small is flat to 12Hz.  You can't get around Hoffmans iron law. 

[ClaudeJ1]

On 2/19/2019 at 4:44 PM, glens said:

I never intended to imply you'd paralleled two caps of the same value with opposing "polarity" but it was specifically brought up by someone else.

That was me. When I worked for an Electronics repair/reverse Engineering company, this was demonstrated to me with actual waveform asymmetry that results under certain high fequency conditions, and it can only be remedied by having Physical Symmetry in the capacitance.

 

Since I have no proof of such in Audio Applications, I don't believe it makes "a dime's worth of difference" in the range of Audio frequencies, which are very LOW on the spectrum. I believe that most of the controversial ideas presented here, that appear to be trolling, are based on quasi-religious beliefs that human hearing, however narrow you deem it to be,  is hyper sensitive to capacitors. I say it all depends on the ears, and certain people may be gifted more than others. The AB/X box would certainly get to the truth, but it simply will NOT HAPPEN here.

 

Besides, 2 channel Audio Reproduction is a BIG ILLUSION to begin with, and we all arrive at our favorite illusions on similar paths. It's all Relative and never Absolute, as some people try to convince you otherwise with their pseudo science.

[karlson3]

fwiw, I'd like to hear Dave A's system - that should be quite a speaker and very clean.  I've got just the midhorns (sitting outside) but no drivers - it would cost a lot to run w. 4X K55V per mid horn)

[ClaudeJ1]

1 minute ago, karlson3 said:

fwiw, I'd like to hear Dave A's system - that should be quite a speaker and very clean.  I've got just the midhorns (sitting outside) but no drivers - it would cost a lot to run w. 4X K55V per mid horn)

I'm sure you have done "the numbers" I gave you in Hornresp, so you have a pretty good idea about what it will do.

[ClaudeJ1]

5 minutes ago, Jeffrey D. Medwin said:

 

 Wrong.

 

Look up the Patent !!   Study it.   Slot loaded, etc.

 

Jeff

I just designed a Tapped Horn that will go down to 12 Hz. using Twin Monster 12" drivers. Looking up a patent won't do what actually BUILDING ONE will do. I prefer simulation, measurements,  and listening to the real thing as opposed to just looking things up and wasting words talking about it.

[CECAA850]

2 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I just designed a Tapped Horn that will go down to 12 Hz. using Twin Monster 12" drivers. Looking up a patent won't do what actually BUILDING ONE will do. I prefer simulation, measurements,  and listening to the real thing as opposed to just looking things up and wasting words talking about it.

I'll bet it was SLIGHTLY larger than the box pictured above.  In addition, when that speaker was built the drivers didn't have near the excursion needed as the drivers today do.  There's absolutely, positively no way that box is flat to 12Hz.  Slot loaded?  Whoopie.  I'd be amazed if it was flat to 25Hz. 

[ClaudeJ1]

13 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

 

Hmmm.....Hey Marvel I have no doubt you heard some difference when you shifted your mid/tweeter alignment but do you really think you can hear a 1/16th inch shift in your tweeter/mid alignment..? Have you actually tried that..?

 

One of the problems with physically changing the time alignment of the two drivers is you haven't just affected the time alignment but you have also changed the physical position of the driver relative to it's mounting boundaries/environment and the effects that has on both the on and off axis frequency response of the system so what a listener perceives might be time alignment or boundary effects or most likely a combination of both.

 

miketn

 

 

I agree and this is why I use Synergy Horns, which have physical and crossover phase alignment. End of problem. No voodoo BS required from misguided souls who claim to have hyper hearing sensitivity beyond all measurement apparatus.