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angelaudio

Klipsch Heresy IV vs Heresy II

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I can only speak from my own experience, but I've definitely noticed break-in on transducers at both ends of the audio chain, meaning cartridges and speakers.  My turntable is equipped with the popular Shure M97xE cartridge.  When I got home from having the cartridge installed and aligned at our best hi-fi shop, I was surprised at how bad it sounded.  Bass notes didn't sound like anything a bass guitar or bass drum would produce.  They sounded more like someone slapping a large piece of thin plywood.  Very odd.  I kept a note of how many album sides I played through it, and it took 10 or 15 LP sides before it stopped sounding terrible, and about 25 LP sides before it sounded completely right, and it seemed to keep that quality for years after that.

 

As for speakers, I haven't bought any new ones since I bought four little Paradigm Atoms for surround speakers, back in 2005.  Then, in 2006, I bought a pair of 32-year-old La Scalas (1974), and the difference in sensitivity between them and the Atoms was beyond the range of my AV receiver to compensate for.  They had to go, and were replaced by first one pair, then a second pair, of Heresy IIs.  Those, and all the rest of my Klipsch speakers, were bought used, including the La Scala IIs.  The difference between LS/LS II, Belle, and Heresy II/III speakers was much less, and easily dialled in.

 

However, I have bought computer speakers, the little desktop units.  Years ago (2010?), I bought a Dell computer, the whole package:  tower, keyboard, monitor, and a pair of little Harmon Kardon speakers.  At first, they sounded quite tinny, as I expected, but over a few weeks they started sounding pretty good.  However, the computer was defective, constantly overheating and crashing and so on.  Dell sent over a tech (great customer service) and he declared it to be a hurting unit.  Dell instructed me to box up everything, including the keyboard and speakers, and they would send me a new kit.  It arrived before I'd packed up the old one, which was good, because then I could see how to pack everything back in the box correctly.

 

To get to the point, when I connected everything and was able to hear the new speakers, they sounded just as tinny as the first set had sounded when they were new.  This was clearly not a case of getting used to the sound.  The sound had changed.  The difference between the new speakers and the month-old original speakers was obvious.

 

In my experience as a mechanic, I've seen piston rings and brake pads wear in to proper full contact.  Some racers would not start a race with a drive chain or engine bearings that didn't have at least a few hours running time on them.  Any moving component will not perform at its best on its first day in service.  Now, cable break-in is something I'm pretty dubious about.  Do the obstructing copper atoms get kicked out of the paths of the electrons as they fly to and fro, so they have a clearer path through the conductors after "break-in"?  Not so sure about that.

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On 5/23/2020 at 12:03 PM, JohnJ said:

Don't give the fours back yet @angelaudio

 

4:00 in right now and I appreciate the fact that you are calmly and intelligently (almost);) presenting your argument against the speakers.

 

Got to tell you that I had IIs for thirty years before I replaced them. Then I missed them so much I got another pair, but what I got were Supers. Super Heresy if you look them up here had the port in the back years ago. I do get a little lower bass in them than the IIs put out.

I enjoyed the pressure of the bass from the sealed IIs that the ported supers don't offer, but lower bass is lower bass and that's what I was craving.

 

So my comparison is only going off of the sealed to ported difference not the IIs to the IVs. But there is a valid point here.

 

Did you ever properly place either pair in your listening comparison? If they were a couple feet out like in your video, you're right you probably missed out on the bass response. Pull the manuals up online if you don't have them on hand. My experience with my IIs for decades before finding this place backed up what I've read here and elsewhere. You'll need walls or even better corners of the listening area to obtain the best response from those Heresy. Especially the ported ones, you even have to play with the placement a little to get them where you might need them for the sound in the room. Tube Amp? Wish I'd gone that route when I rebuilt my rig, did get to put them in the analog path. So if the amp offers different settings try that also.

My Supers with the high & mid drivers from the LS and KHorn angled and out at different heights do well in our den/kitchen big room for the tv or youtube music on the tv, they're spread as far as possible in corners.

 

Not trying to admonish, just enlighten you to a basic principle they you could have missed out on. You might give them another listen after setting them up better! Then you might need to change your online video!

 

Welcome to the forums!

As the guy who did the mods and created the Super Heresys (v1.0, 1.5, and 2.0) with different drivers EXCEPT the mids from 1 and 1.5 H's from Klipsch H1's almost 7 years ago, you beat me to the punch with this comment.

 

The OP has a placement issue and yes, you need more "IRON" from tube amps to get down there in the bass. BOTH of his Heresy's are too far from the walls and corners as relfective surfaces, and it is even more CRITICAL with the performance of the Heresy IV, with it's REAR PORT.

 

My original and very 1st pair of Supers I created (now owned by Jim Jimbo) measured down to an unbelievable 30 Hz. response because of ROOM GAIN when they were about 1 foot away from walls and corners, causing a 6-10 rise in output below 100 Hz. where bass can be more FELT than heard.

 

Plus Saul Marantz himself  (yep the real one) told me, when I was 23, that I should alway use Solid State for a woofer section or subwoofers whenever possible and reserve tubes for midrange and treble duties. This is from the ultimate TUBE GUY.

 

So, to the OP:  You blame the speaker for your less than stellar impression of their performance by not giving them what they NEED to do their best in your room with unknown dimensions and creating more questions than answers in your You Tube video!

 

So, I can accept not knowing, but I can't accept laziness when trying to get the best sound for your money, eh? So I suggest you give them a try after PLACEMENT improvement. Otherwise you may want to borrow a SS amp to see what the real bass should sound like.

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On 5/23/2020 at 4:57 PM, ILI said:

Taking into account the substantial price upgrade of the 4s, critical and sceptical listening is appreciated and welcomed. 

 

I agree with this notion, but ONLY after they are set up properly and given and A/B switch treatment to create a quick reference with AUDIO OUTPUT. Even compressed YouTube audio is better than none for comparison as opposed to just disappointed words. Yes, I watched the other 2 videos and placement is bad for the ported one.

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9 hours ago, ODS123 said:

To test the "break-in" hypothesis I suggest doing the following:

 

After unboxing a new pair of speakers, let ONE speaker play through the night.  This can be easily accomplished using the balance control.  ..Come morning, play a song in MONO with both speakers set side-by-side and switch b/w them using the balance control.  Do you hear a difference???

 

I did this with Spica TC-50's, PSB Stratus Minis, Vandersteen 3A Sigs, and finally Paradigm S8 v2s.  ..All were purchased new.  ..Neither I, nor ANYONE in my family could hear one IOTA of difference b/w the speakers.  Speaker break-in is a myth.  Manufactures (some, not all) allow it to persist b/c it helps to mitigate returns from people who aren't bowled over by how their brand new speakers sound.  "Don't do any critical listening for 50 hours" serves a purpose for manufacturers.  ..They know that after that period of time your ears will have adjusted to your new speakers and the impulse to return them will have passed.  And you'll probably have re-read the great reviews that led you to the purchase in the first place and have gone to web forums such as this where people will reassure you that they are much better than what you had.

From a technical standpoint, you are correct about speaker break in being a myth since the BOX design OVERWHELMS whatever shift in woofer parameters might occur and PLACEMENT and ROOM SIZE, and LISTENER POSITION overwhelms the BOX below 200-300 Hz.! So, the box and room parameters overwhelm whatever small shift occurs in the speaker suspension at like 1000:1.

 

What we should be talking about is EMOTIONAL Break in, of the BUYER, which is mostly what the marketing people say.............IOW, you will get used to them and like them better over time, but they will not physically change at all.

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8 hours ago, jimjimbo said:

You likely know the answer to this, but....even with those nice new components you still had the HIP woofer in them (I think) which gave up lower extension for increased potential output.  If you were to keep the woofer in them, you could add some foam to the cabinet interior and realize some increased bass.

I have to add "via decreased midrange" bouncing around the box then through the front of the cone.

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7 hours ago, ILI said:

If woofer gasket is paper and it needs little break in, imo. If the gasket of the H4 woofer is rubber or foam, imo the low frequencies may evolve as the rubber comes to room temperature, and is stretched for the first time for, with elasticity setting in. Depending on ambient factors like temp and air humidity this may take one up to several hours. 

 

Anyway, here is Klipsch official view on break in: https://www.klipsch.com/blog/how-and-why-to-break-in-your-new-speakers

 

Basically, the article was written by, what I perceive to be a MARKETING person. The box, the room, and the AMPLIFIER (solid state vs. tubes) and the RECORDING will affect BASS response way more than the Suspension Mechanism of the Cone, which is 0.01 percent of the total sound output differential.

 

But, since Audio in general is all about Perception of ILLUSION, it doesn't matter what we all say. It's the ears of the buyer that count the MOST of all!!

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6 hours ago, JohnA said:

 

Actually you are incorrect.  My H IVs were the first speakers I've bought new in about 35 years.  After an hour I thought I had made a mistake.  So, I found some dub step and other bassy music online and played them 24H/day, at moderate levels with max bass boost.  After 3 days they sounded more like what I heard in Hope.  After 7 days, they sounded like Roy's demo speaker and I quit the foolishness. 

 

I did not believe in speaker break-in before this.  I still think some people/situations need some ear adjustment time, but for woofers, an extended break-in is real.  Klipsch even does a break-in on woofers by running them at a low frequency for a handful of hours before testing. 

Resistance is Futile INDEED!

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5 hours ago, angelaudio said:

 

 

What I meant is that it appears to me that after comparing the II to the IV using my Bob Latino ST-70, that I need to drive the IV's higher in volume to get the woofers to drive them deeper before the bigger bass becomes more audible. Maybe what's happening is that because my H II are obviously more efficient than the IV that the little Decware amp has an easier time driving the bass on the II. I'm obviously by no means qualified to know that's what's really going on. I'm just going based on what I appear to hear when comparing them. For example when I played "Loves Theme" by Barry White, I dropped my jaw at the bass in the new IV when I pumped up the volume. It was chest pounding. With my H II, I hear it, but I don't feel it like I do in the IV at the higher volume levels . This may also have something to do with the acoustics of my room as one response explained but once again I find it rather odd that more experienced reviewers don't seem to address or explain things. Instead it's just.... the IV is better. Better in what ways specifically and why or why not? A friend once said we call it confirmation bias. 

Different drivers, different boxes, different principles Ported vs. Sealed require different woofers, which USUALLY establish overall system SENSITIVITY, along with different CROSSOVERS which can radically change the voicing. You still need and A/B switch to prove your point, even though the PLACEMENT is wrong.

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22 hours ago, billybob said:

Well, there are members on this thread that can save you time and money because they have done as much and more. SuperHeresy comes to mind. You might start a topic but, plenty in the archive.

No, I can tell you without hearing them that, as awesome as my Heresy is, the IV is awesomer still.

A whole new experience, I am certain. Why, because, review s and owners here say as much or more. Good enough!

A high BL product Woofer Driver usually means a Bigger/Stronger Motor (smaller and stronger in the case of Neo Magnets), which tips the bass response towards the midrange and thins out the bass. Since I was NOT constrained by MANUFACTURING Cost Bean Counters when I did the SH mods, I used the biggest, baddest 12" driver I could find to improve the midrange response from 300-700 Hz.. then I ported the box to get the bass back from using a High BL woofer.  This turned out to be the proper order of IMPORTANCE in making it all work in the BOX.

 

The original 12" Eminence Delta Pro driver ALONE weight 20 lbs., which I'm pretty sure Klipsch is NOT using for a production Heresy IV, which has completely different everything from my Super Heresys....................................even the Box and the PORT!!

 

The rest was proper placement and SS amplifiers.

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6 hours ago, angelaudio said:

 

 

What I meant is that it appears to me that after comparing the II to the IV using my Bob Latino ST-70, that I need to drive the IV's higher in volume to get the woofers to drive them deeper before the bigger bass becomes more audible. Maybe what's happening is that because my H II are obviously more efficient than the IV that the little Decware amp has an easier time driving the bass on the II. I'm obviously by no means qualified to know that's what's really going on. I'm just going based on what I appear to hear when comparing them. For example when I played "Loves Theme" by Barry White, I dropped my jaw at the bass in the new IV when I pumped up the volume. It was chest pounding. With my H II, I hear it, but I don't feel it like I do in the IV at the higher volume levels . This may also have something to do with the acoustics of my room as one response explained but once again I find it rather odd that more experienced reviewers don't seem to address or explain things. Instead it's just.... the IV is better. Better in what ways specifically and why or why not? A friend once said we call it confirmation bias. 

Now you understand.

 

My rules are simple. If you are buying a speaker from me, show me the MONEY. If you are trying to convice me about their SOUND, show me the CURVES!!!!!!!

 

In God we Trust. All other provide DATA, not just OPINIONS>

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5 hours ago, ODS123 said:

And to add to Andrew Robinson's comments above, I'll repeat that Bob Crites, noted Klipsch authority and manufacturer of heralded upgrades (including drivers) also says Break-in, beyond an hour for large drivers, is BS.  ..Of course it is.

 

If a manufacturer knew their speakers sounded better after 30 hours of play, then they would make 30 hours of play part of the production process. 

 

And be doubly skeptical of anyone claiming electronic components or (sigh) cable have a break-in period.

 

People offering mere anecdotal accounts of "I didn't think I'd hear a difference, but then I did..." are not very convincing.  ...There can be a myriad of reasons why speakers or other components "sound" different from day to day, including one's mood, sinus congestion (gross), environmental noise, etc...   But breakin?  ..Sorry, but not so, IHMO.

It's basically called EMOTIONAL TESTING.

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Alrighty @ClaudeJ1

Sometimes I have my wordy moments, and since the op did calmly proclaim his dislike for those speakers that I've loved since the first time I heard them, I got diplomatic. Didn't just want to say RTFM. And looks like he has an almost piece of pie shaped room!! I just don't know about that!

 

In hindsight maybe I should mention your name every time I talk about the Super Heresy since you did all the work on those. My home isn't like the pics I've seen of you're "listening area" but the Supers in the biggest room do a fine job for tv movies, hockey games (can track the puck better when they broadcast the sound lined up correctly!) and music. Because I tested at different angles and distances from the corners.

 

Then to top it off even Klipsch recognized your work with their latest iteration of the venerable li'l Heresy.

 

Bada Bing

Bada BOOM

:emotion-21::emotion-21:

 

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53 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

Alrighty @ClaudeJ1

Sometimes I have my wordy moments, and since the op did calmly proclaim his dislike for those speakers that I've loved since the first time I heard them, I got diplomatic. Didn't just want to say RTFM. And looks like he has an almost piece of pie shaped room!! I just don't know about that!

 

In hindsight maybe I should mention your name every time I talk about the Super Heresy since you did all the work on those. My home isn't like the pics I've seen of you're "listening area" but the Supers in the biggest room do a fine job for tv movies, hockey games (can track the puck better when they broadcast the sound lined up correctly!) and music. Because I tested at different angles and distances from the corners.

 

Then to top it off even Klipsch recognized your work with their latest iteration of the venerable li'l Heresy.

 

Bada Bing

Bada BOOM

:emotion-21::emotion-21:

 

Like a wise old man from Detroit once told me: "Thangs be whut dey is."  This applies to many aspects of life and AUDIO, which is 95% misinformation throughout, especially if you attend a High End Audio show. While I appreciate the positive shout out, I only try to help by sharing my experiences (good and bad, but mostly good), even though it's a bit frustrating at times. Since the Heresy did save Klipsch and Associates from going out of business (very few people wanted Khorns), I always thought it deserved an upgrade after the Heresy 1 had been in service almost 50 years. If it did, hopefully, serve as a minor catalyst for the creation of the Heresy IV, so be it.

 

In defense of the OP, all he could do was give his honest impressions, even when met with surprise from so many here. Seems like Audio is not immune from the same BS and misunderstanding that other fields seem to suffer. Bad information is now available about everything, especially on You Tube, so it just means we need a larger BS filter more frequently than before the advent of the Internet Propagation Thereof!

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Like a wise old man from Detroit once told me: "Thangs be whut dey is."  This applies to many aspects of life and AUDIO, which is 95% misinformation throughout, especially if you attend a High End Audio show. While I appreciate the positive shout out, I only try to help by sharing my experiences (good and bad, but mostly good), even though it's a bit frustrating at times. Since the Heresy did save Klipsch and Associates from going out of business (very few people wanted Khorns), I always thought it deserved an upgrade after the Heresy 1 had been in service almost 50 years. If it did, hopefully, serve as a minor catalyst for the creation of the Heresy IV, so be it.
 
In defense of the OP, all he could do was give his honest impressions, even when met with surprise from so many here. Seems like Audio is not immune from the same BS and misunderstanding that other fields seem to suffer. Bad information is now available about everything, especially on You Tube, so it just means we need a larger BS filter more frequently than before the advent of the Internet Propagation Thereof!

Now who's the wise man, eh? Beautifully said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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22 hours ago, billybob said:

Back to the title of this topic then,

why compare two models from the same line with similar yet different sound signatures.

This versus one or the other or

what then. Sure if you have time in your schedule, have a go.

Just make certain that your test or experiment relies upon equal footing from the start, and ends

the same way with no deviation.

To what end or unbiased conclusion did it come to.

Did it meet the criteria that you

we're looking for. What did it prove to your reasons for doing this comparison.

To what good, and to what, or whose advantage is a result of any conclusion, if any. To what purpose did it serve, if any.

 

All I'm saying is that a lot of what we are told on youtube and the internet is parroted and just because a lot of enthusiasts repeat it, doesn't mean it's all true. Why compare them? Because that's what we all do, compare things. Why not? That's part of the fun, otherwise we wouldn't be here discussing it. Hey, I'm not an authority on this subject by any means and don't claim to be. I've only been listening to various equipment a couple of years. I am an authority on another subject different from audio and one thing I know for sure is that the individuals in my industry simply parrot a lot of BS, crap and misinformation they read from others who know less than they do.

 

Getting back on topic, the IV is an amazing speaker and I strongly recommend it. I love Klipsch and I love horns and I'm glad Klipsch did the IV.  I want Klipsch to succeed because IMO they make the best damn speakers I've heard for what I enjoy listening to but I try to avoid falling into the traps of these comments where enthusiasts don't put sh.......... into proper context. Anyway, I didn't mean to rain on the IV parade. I'm going to take the second response's advice and make an acoustic corner of some type using an artificial wall I can put in and out. Most importantly than anything, just enjoy listening to jazz. Thank you all for your thoughts and feedback, I know I have a lot to learn. 

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It is all good. Never was a problem.

What it is all about. You chose well!

Welcome!

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1 hour ago, angelaudio said:

 

All I'm saying is that a lot of what we are told on youtube and the internet is parroted and just because a lot of enthusiasts repeat it, doesn't mean it's all true. Why compare them? Because that's what we all do, compare things. Why not? That's part of the fun, I want Klipsch to succeed because IMO they make the best damn speakers I've heard for what I enjoy listening to but I try to avoid falling into the traps of these comments where enthusiasts don't put sh.......... into proper context. Anyway, I didn't mean to rain on the IV parade. I'm going to take the second response's advice and make an acoustic corner of some type using an artificial wall I can put in and out. Most importantly than anything, just enjoy listening to jazz. Thank you all for your thoughts and feedback, I know I have a lot to learn. 

 

I think what you're saying makes sense.  ..And as the owner of Cornwall III's, who has been reading lot's of similar hyperbole about how "the Cornwall IV's crush the III's! (by probably the same group of posters) I can relate to your comments.  ..While I haven't had the occasion to hear the Cornwall IV's, let alone compare them side-by-side with the III's, I'm quite certain if I got the chance, the difference would be FAR more subtle than what people here would have you believe.  After all, they were designed, engineered, and manufactured with the same guiding principles - so why would there be a night & day difference between them? 

 

When I bought my previous 2 speakers - Vandersteen 3A Sigs, and Paradigm S8 v2's, I had the occasion to compare them directly with their predecessors AND they too had their fanboys who claimed that they new model absolutely trounced the outgoing.  What did I find??  ..In blinded tests it was VERY difficult telling them apart.  ..And even when I succeeded, it wasn't entirely clear which sounded MORE like music.  ..Just slightly different.  ..And so I bet it  goes with the version IV Cornwall And Heresy. ..That the differences are much more subtle than what you read here

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59 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

While I haven't had the occasion to hear the Cornwall IV's, let alone compare them side-by-side with the III's, I'm quite certain if I got the chance, the difference would be FAR more subtle than what people here would have you believe.


IMHO it’s not “subtle” ... 🙂

 

What I can’t say is how the difference fits in with an individual’s value systems but from a sound reproduction perspective the  Cornwall lV improvements can clearly be perceived and the improvements in clarity on Vocals and a “Major reduction in box resonance coloration” greatly adding to an improvement in clarity which with a short demonstration that was properly implemented in Hope by Roy was anything but “subtle” if you value those qualities.

 

miketn
 

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1 hour ago, mikebse2a3 said:


IMHO it’s not “subtle” ... 🙂

 

 

Curious to know...  When you compared the III's to the IV's:

 

Did Roy tell you what was improved on the IV?

  • If Yes, then listeners are predisposed to hearing the differences AND considering them to be improvements - BIAS!

Were they carefully volume matched? 

  • If no, then the louder speaker is likely to be perceived as more open, dynamic, basically "better".  - BIAS!

Did you know which you were hearing at any given time?  ..Was this a blinded or sighted comparison?

  • If "sighted" there would be a strong tendency to pick Roy's version IV as sounding better.  Afterall, you were his invited guest - would be kinda hard to say "nope, not hearing a difference."  Kinda like a friend who says, "isn't my baby the most precious you've ever seen?"  Plus, having been invited to preview the speakers confers a bit of prestige and pride on those invited.  ..I see lot's of opportunity for confirmation bias here.  BIAS!

Did everyone hear everyone else's comments and observations?

  • If yes, then much opportunity for each persons opinion to be affected by the opinions expressed by the others.  Would be better if everyone just took notes on what they thought was better about them - then shared (or better, pass them to someone else to be read).   BIAS!

Sorry, but I find any listening comparison where there isn't a good-faithed effort to control biases to be rather uncompelling.

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1 minute ago, ODS123 said:

Sorry, but I find any listening comparison where there isn't a good-faithed effort to control biases to be rather uncompelling.

 

Suit yourself, but I agree with @mikebse2a3. Opinions are just opinions, and I don't need a blind test to know that I like strawberry ice cream better than I like chocolate ice cream. That's why Baskin-Robbins offers 31 flavors, and that's why there are so many loudspeaker manufacturers in addition to Klipsch.

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