Help Needed: Klipschorns with Harsh Distortion

[OO1]

2 minutes ago, garyrc said:

 

The small rubber washer that is between the midrange driver and the mid horn in both the Khorns and the Heresy I may be partially deteriorated.  Ask Bob Crites where to get new ones (you'll need 4).

Gary , tx for chiming in , I had these  washers behind my mind  as well , replacing them is sound advice  ----but the immediate question is are these  mids and highs just not broken in     --------or just dirty ------rusty - who knows -------he's gotta  swap them   , and then  open them up and tell us what he sees    -

[Marvel]

Just had a look at the pics. It looks like the woofer is wired with the polarity reversed. Are they both the same or did you make sure they were correct when putting in the new crossovers?

 

Bruce

[CECAA850]

4 minutes ago, Marvel said:

Just had a look at the pics. It looks like the woofer is wired with the polarity reversed. Are they both the same or did you make sure they were correct when putting in the new crossovers?

 

Bruce

I can't see the wiring that well but that would certainly cancel the bass out and make the upper frequencies seem more forward.

[ClaudeJ1]

On 6/13/2020 at 9:16 PM, PrestonTom said:

Come on guys, the presenting complaints are "the high and possibly the middle frequencies are washy, messy, and shrill -- painful to hear" 

 

Unless the guy is exaggerating, Do you really think this is wiring, crossover rebuild, capacitors? For instance, capacitors that built up a series resistance are going to decrease the energy in the high frequencies, That decrease would hardly be described as sounding "shrill".

 

Look at the big issues. Is it on both sides (both cabinets)? Has a test tone been run through it to determine whether it is woofer, squawker, or tweeter? Playing music (of some unspecified type) is really a rotten test signal. There are much better ways to diagnose. Personally, I would make sure that none of the drivers have been damaged. 

 

I hope this guy gets it solved without doing the "obligatory let's put new caps in the crossover". I am not unsympathetic, the OP has not been very articulate in what the exact problem is. 

 

Good luck,

-Tom

The only time one of my LaScalas ever sounded bad, it was a BAD DIAPHRAGM in one of the K55's. The midrange is where we live, so look for TROUBLE there FIRST!!! If his Heresy's are from the same time period, he can just screw in a K-55 from one of the Heresys. He will know right away his mids were bad.

 

[ClaudeJ1]

On 6/14/2020 at 12:30 PM, kevinmi said:

Looks like the K-Horn is not all the way in the corner due to the radiator being in the way? If that's true, you will not get the right sound out of the speaker. The K-Horns MUST be tight in the corners for best results. Another option would be to enclose the backs, then you can get by without being tightly sealed in the corners. Those crossovers need to be rebuilt or replaced also.

Even thought this would not directly address the problem, it's a good and easy thing to do. Enclosing the back of the Khorn bins makes them better.

[mark1101]

It sounds like the complaint is ear piercing from the top end.  The speakers looked original and probably nothing wrong with them.  One thing you could consider is replacing the AA networks with a pair of ALK Super X networks which drop the tweeter and squawker a few DB to enhance the bass and balance the speaker in situations like you have.

 

Look at the ALK Engineering site and read about them.  See what you think.

 

My GUESS is that there is nothing at all wrong with your speakers now that you replaced the crossovers with new parts.  It is probably the synergy of your recordings, source, amp, and room producing a blaring top end which is not uncommon.  The SuperX crossovers would change that significantly.

 

I have run those in my lascalas for years after fooling with a lot of different things that didn't change much to my liking.

[Marvel]

22 minutes ago, mark1101 said:

a pair of ALK Super X networks which drop the tweeter and squawker a few DB to enhance the bass and balance the speaker in situations like you have.

 

I would do that after checking the diaphragms... Dropping the mids on my LS did wonders for the tonal balance.

[OO1]

19 hours ago, Marvel said:

Just had a look at the pics. It looks like the woofer is wired with the polarity reversed. Are they both the same or did you make sure they were correct when putting in the new crossovers?

 

Bruce

you can see that -----

[Marvel]

47 minutes ago, RandyH 000 said:

you can see that -----

Is that a question?

[OO1]

6 minutes ago, Marvel said:

Is that a question?

just kidding 🤩

[Mighty McIntosh]

On 6/22/2020 at 4:34 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

If his Heresy's are from the same time period, he can just screw in a K-55 from one of the Heresys.

 

Alas, I finally opened the back of one of the Heresies, which I got in the early '80s, and the squawker driver is a k52k. Can I attach that to the Khorn without blowing something up?

[Mighty McIntosh]

On 6/22/2020 at 4:34 PM, ClaudeJ1 said:

The midrange is where we live, so look for TROUBLE there FIRST!

 

On 6/23/2020 at 9:55 AM, mark1101 said:

It sounds like the complaint is ear piercing from the top end.  The speakers looked original and probably nothing wrong with them.  One thing you could consider is replacing the AA networks with a pair of ALK Super X networks which drop the tweeter and squawker a few DB to enhance the bass and balance the speaker in situations like you have.

 

I've been saying harsh "top end," but I've forgotten how subjectively "high" pitched the upper reaches of the midrange sound. On ALK's "Super X" web page, I found this graph:

...And based on this, I listened to a 2kHz tone on YouTube, to see if that was near the frequency that was hurting my ears. It very well might be: 2kHz was more "top end" than I expected. (I am still clinging to the ridiculous notion that my hearing is 20-20k, a fantasy which I attribute to the psychological fear of growing old and dying.) I will test this hypothesis more carefully by playing various tones through the Khorns to see at what frequencies they sound most bothersome.

 

One question I have about a potential ALK upgrade is, would I send ALK the new crossovers that I just bought from Bob Crites, or would I send the old crossovers? The ALK upgrade...

Quote

includes all new capacitors (Audyn of Germany) and small inductors (Solen hepta-Litz). The base board, connection block, T2A transformer, zener tweeter protector and large woofer inductor will all be retained.

 

And my question about whether I can try the k52k driver in the Khorn's k400 squawker horn still stands.

[triceratops]

Mighty McIntosh,

 

I'm sorry, but I don't know the answer to the question about the K52K driver.

 

However, I want to remind you that the graph you posted is an impedance graph relative to frequency, not a dB graph relative to frequency. So this does not represent a spike in 2K volume.

 

It's true that impedance variation does present a more difficult load for the amp, but it is quite common for impedance graphs to be erratic like the AA example you posted. 

 

An Al K. crossover is a significant expense, which I do not think you should undertake until you first hear the speakers in their original design. 

 

Please, please, please have the drivers tested before you spend money that you may not need to spend.

 

One should always go slowly and methodically with updates and upgrades.

 

It helps to look at this as an opportunity to not only diagnose the problem, but also to get a seat-of-the-pants education while you are doing it. Please be patient.

 

I'll bet that Crites can test those drivers and get them back to you quickly. He is a great resource and has helped many of us over the years.

 

Good luck,

triceratops

[Mighty McIntosh]

1 hour ago, triceratops said:

the graph you posted is an impedance graph relative to frequency, not a dB graph relative to frequency. So this does not represent a spike in 2K volume.

 

D'oh!

 

Points well taken, triceratops.

[garyrc]

"Harshness" may be between about 800Hz/900Hz and 3,500 Hz, to my ears, with very harsh recordings (often those made during the first year or two of the CD era.  YMMV.   There was a "BBC dip" in some BBC speakers in the '60s through the '80s to cut down on  harshness.  This may -- or may not -- have been at about 2,000 Hz -- people fight about where it was.

 

I guess Klipsch stopped using a K55 midrange in the Heresy I after a while, and changed to a K52K ... except I thought it was a K-53-K.  Not at all sure about compatibility, but the Klipschorn crossovers may try to send a 400 Hz or 450 Hz signal through the K52Ks or K53Ks -- whatever they are.  I don't know where they are supposed to crossover in the Heresy.  It would be a shame to damage the Heresy drivers you love so much.

 

I would skip everything else, for now, and phone Bob Crites, and see what he would charge you to test the Klipschorn midrange drivers you have, & also the tweeters. 

[OO1]

15 hours ago, Mighty McIntosh said:

 

Alas, I finally opened the back of one of the Heresies, which I got in the early '80s, and the squawker driver is a k52k. Can I attach that to the Khorn without blowing something up?

nope the K52 K is not  suited for the Khorn , BUT THE TWEETER IS - THE k77

[OO1]

11 hours ago, Mighty McIntosh said:

 

 

And my question about whether I can try the k52k driver in the Khorn's k400 squawker horn still stands.

NO THE K52 k  WONT WORK WITH THE KHORN

[OO1]

11 hours ago, Mighty McIntosh said:

 

 

I've been saying harsh "top end," but I've forgotten how subjectively "high" pitched the upper reaches of the midrange sound. On ALK's "Super X" web page, I found this graph:

...And based on this, I listened to a 2kHz tone on YouTube, to see if that was near the frequency that was hurting my ears. It very well might be: 2kHz was more "top end" than I expected. (I am still clinging to the ridiculous notion that my hearing is 20-20k, a fantasy which I attribute to the psychological fear of growing old and dying.) I will test this hypothesis more carefully by playing various tones through the Khorns to see at what frequencies they sound most bothersome.

 

One question I have about a potential ALK upgrade is, would I send ALK the new crossovers that I just bought from Bob Crites, or would I send the old crossovers? The ALK upgrade...

 

And my question about whether I can try the k52k driver in the Khorn's k400 squawker horn still stands.

SWAP THE TWEETERS -----------

[hogwylde09]

Klipschorns high sensitivity requires a deserving preamp with tone controls. That was the bottom line for taming the upper frequencies in my case. I tried Melose 110b, rolled many 6DJ8 varieties. Then tried my Aric Audio Unlimited with Telefunken 12AU7’s better. But still not quite there. In desperation pulled out the Dynaco PAS 2. NOW, getting somewhere. 
Bound and determined to make them work with the MC30’s I bought and rebuilt for my birthday present to myself last month.

 I knew damn well if these speakers could sound so good with a Marantz 2220b I had just completed a rebuild, I had to make them work with my 30’s. Because the 2220b sounded remarkably good even with the tone controls straight up 12:00. 
BTW, I have a McIntosh C20 preamp/MC75 mono’s/Belle Klipsch L and R front/CF4’S L & R rear (those driven with a Dynaco ST-70).

I rely on the bass, treble and loudness contour heavily on that C20.

IMHO There is no perfect room, treatment nor magic fairy dust capacitors, cables etc. for fixing a “bright” speakers’ with horns.

 I’m hooked on Klipsch Heritage, Epic, Legend and some of the kg series.

Just not straight wire gain. Must have tone controls OR room Correlation. As in the Jubes.

 I don’t know why preamplifier manufacturers have all gone that way. At least I have never found one that worked for me.

Last but not least, I am not going to say none are out there, CJ, AR and other high end preamps must be doing something right as they get high praises. But also look at the “other” brands of speakers they are usually pair with.

YMMV

I am a faithful Klipsch Fanatic and will remain the way. And have found what works for MY tastes. 
Have a great day gents, I’m going to turn on some music. Loud music! 
Jimmy

[Mighty McIntosh]

FIXED IT.

 

Remember when, in the OP, I wrote:

 

On 6/13/2020 at 3:54 PM, Mighty McIntosh said:

I am currently using the 4 ohm terminals, and haven't yet tried 8 or 16

 

Well, today I switched to the 8 ohm taps, just to see if it would change the sound. Oh, my God. Totally different.

 

I hadn't realized until listening at 8 ohms that I haven't been hearing what I'm accustomed to hearing from the McIntosh amp—the gravitas, the Luke Cage–like punch, the darkly romantic almost sinister, Wuthering Heights–like tonality surrounding the bell-clear details. It's all back, and more so. The Khorns play the McIntosh 240's qualities more gloriously than ever before. As of this writing, I've been listening, enrapt, for hours.

 

All the detail, the high resolution that I'd had with the Heresies is now coming out of the Klipschorns with even more presence. The bass, midrange and treble frequencies sound much better integrated, smoother. (Thanks to the new Crites' AA crossovers, I suspect.)

 

The midrange is still pushy and brassy, but now this sounds like a characteristic of the speakers rather than like something is broken. I've picked up the cues having to do with taming the mids: I use the Amarra player, and also have Amarra's EQ module. With some experimenting I arrived at these settings:

The -2.5 Db reduction centered on 1995 Hz takes out much of the brassiness, while the increases at 4000, 6250 & 8000 Hz serve to restore specific frequencies at which I have some hearing loss. (With the Heresies and Music Hall Marimbas I typically set these freqs 2-3 times higher: 3 Db, 4 Db, and 2 Db, respectively.)

 

It would still be nice to reduce what sounds like over-resonance in the mids and highs. My reading in this forum suggests trying wrapping the horns (e.g. with Noico Sound Deadener). Interested in your thoughts on this.

 

Your collective thoughts so far have helped initiate me into the Realm of Klipschorn. Thank you.