Tube amp and pre-amp with Turntable vs SS with DVD-A

[artto]

Great observation fini. It always seems to sound better when I'm facing west (LOL).

I was given the "Audio Papers from Klipsch & Associates" by Mrs. Eva Belle Klipsch many years ago.

As far as I know, the "Dope From Hope" publications were mostly intended as dealer newsletters/bulletins. One the Klipsch engineers, Gary Gillum (don't know if he's still with Klipsch) sent me a set of them back in the 80's. I have another set that I believe I got from the local dealer. They both contain somethings that the other does not. So I'd start by contacting Klipsch. Many of the documents included in the "Audio Papers" should be available on the web or in the library, especially engineering libraries at a college or university.

Randy...use the long wall (17'). 12' apart for 2 K-horns is awfully close. See "Experiences In Stereophony" Audio, July 1955, Paul W. Klipsch & "Wide-Stage Stereo" IRE Transactions On Audio Vol. AU-7, No. 4, July 1959 PWK, also, for starters. With the speakers placed the way they are, your "sweet spot" is only about 7-8' from the K-horns. "The Klipschorn is also intended to be listened to at ranges greater than 3 meters" (Richard Heyser, Best of Audio Vol. IV, fall 1989). By sitting so close you are not getting the full benefit of what the K-horns are producing. And if you're sitting further back, you're still not getting the most benefit from the speaker due the to geometry of the speaker's projection relative to the off-axis listening position.

Andy, you might contemplate building some false corners (also covered in a D F H newsletter). Gary Gillum describes a corner wall constructed using a 2x4 frame with half inch plywood on the outside & three-quarter inch plywood on the inside (speaker side). They applied formica for cosmetic purposes. "Negligible improvement will be obtained from extending further than four (4) feet from the corner." Paul Klipsch used these in his "second home". I have a hand drawn diagram, from the man himself, showing the layout of the room.

To quote the late, great Richard Heyser once again, "Because the Klipschorn uses the corner and floor of the room as a part of the bass reproduction process, the speakers must be placed in the corners for best reproduction. If the listening room does not have available corners or is very small, then, in my opinion, purchase of a Klipschorn system should not be comtemplated. It simply needs room to sing." (thats why Klipsch makes other speakers like the LaScala or Belle Klipsch or Heresy or RF7's folks). While not pointing the finger at anyone in this thread, I've seen some pretty silly setups other places on this forum (like the guy with the 30'x12' mobile home using K-horns on the long wall & he wonders why they don't sound "right"). Whats the point in putting a Ferrari engine in a 1978 Chevette? It couldn't be EGO now could it?....nah!

And Randy, I doubt I'm any better off financially than you are. My room was built 20 years ago. I had hoped to build a new house by now with a bigger & better room. Things having gone the way they have, it may never happen. But, who knows? You should also know that I am somewhat at an advantage. I have a strong background in architecture. By the way...concrete does NOT have very good acoustical properties. Great for blocking sound. But its sound absorption co-efficient is enough to make my ears ring just looking at it.

[Soundthought]

Just as a quick reference.

Absorbtion coefficients of a few standard building materials;

Listed @

125Hz-250Hz-500Hz-1kHz-2kHz-4kHz

Wood floor (standard)

.15 .11 .10 .07 .06 .07

Concrete floor (standard)

.01 .01 .015 .02 .02 .02

Concrete block (coarse)

.36 .44 .31 .29 .39 .25

Concrete block (painted)

.10 .05 .06 .07 .09 .08

Gypsum board (1/2in on 2x4s 16"o.c.)

.29 .10 .05 .04 .07 .09

[mobile homeless]

Why was PWK such a huge proponent on long wall placement? Indeed. IT was the only way one could use his corner mounted Klipschorn and have the intersection of the axis even remotely near his skull! And once this comes into play, the result was a speaker placement soooo wide, proper center fill was something one couldn't even imagine, let alone achieve, hence his second component I generally disagree with, the use of the Center speaker to fill in the hole left from the ultra-wide placement.

PWK wasn't stupid and realized there was NO WAY to make a speaker cut for every room dimension in order to give more manageable positioning for proper stereo imaging so there went the 45 degree angle stock setting which made MR. LONG WALL something everyone must come to know. It was also nice to be able to draw equal patterns coming from the exact 45 point between a 90 degree angle.

I would bet that MOST uses of the Klipschorns involve the intersection of the axis to occur well before the listener's head (Ironically, in many single source speaker applications, many are crossing in front as well).

In my view, almost the ONLY REASON PWK designed a horn speaker to be used in the corner was the make credible BASS. That's it. The use of the three walls surfaces plus the floor produced enough bass to recreate a "low C on the organ." The rest of the marketing to explain the positives for the better reproduction of the mids and highs involved ridding of "dead areas" thus giving the Corner horn the only way to adequately distribute the "highs" throughout the room. This sounds good and works in a de facto way... and is basically correct but with other problems seen below i.e. proper stereo imaging.

But what the properly mounted Klipschorn essentially creates is a soundstage that I believe is TOO wide (wider than natural) and extremely SHALLOW, far more shallow than reality (although there is many that believe that the entire discussion of soundstaging is just visual games and not really pertaining to proper reproduction).

The ultimate horn would be one that could be used AWAY from the wall boundaries not having to rely on them to produce the bottom end. Sadly, this horn would have to be HUGE, far larger than the low end area of something like the Klipschorn (and FAR larger than most would put up with in their own home - or have room for).

In my view, the Klipschorn is a compromise in almost all other areas to achieve the low end. It's an amazingly simple solution that provides a credible answer/result to achieve adequate low end. But in almost ALL other areas of the stereo reproduction, you are paying for this solution with compromises such as the LONG wall placement and subsequent CENTER fill speaker all the above resulting in less than stellar soundstaging with a soundstage that is at once TOO wide and TOO shallow.

PWK came out with some great papers to argue the benefits. But in all actuality, more optimum results come from PLACING speakers AWAY from the corners and out into the room with unequal distances between side walls and rear wall with the basic rule of thirds coming into play. After placing the Klipschorns in the desired locations you are now stuck with making up for this placement and in my view, will never gain proper soundstage depth or stereo imaging, with the long wall bringing one compromise solution and the short wall another....

I have found the best imaging and stereo reproduction to follow the more normal accepted standards with moving the speakers AWAY from the rear wall basically a THIRD of the length of the room with the listening position being on average TWO THIRDS into the room. The side wall distance should not equal the speaker distance from the rear wall. Ultiamtely, the removal of wall reflections is the way to go for clarity. Unfortunately, the bass will not gain reinforcement from the walls so the lows will have to depend more on the DRIVERS and ENCLOSURE.

The sin of 90% of most setups is not bringing the speakers AWAY from the rear wall and side wall boundaries. Of course, you don't see much of this talk within the Klipsch forum as the placement of something like the Khorns DEPENDS on the corners (or false corners for compromise).

That being said, do I think the Klipschorn a poor speaker? NO. Horns can produce amazing dynamics and ultimate clarity... but the location is used to BRING satisfying low end to the horn loaded bass from a structure that would otherwise not produce these lows. And all else is a compromise and fix to attempt to gain the proper soundstaging and stereo affect.

I personally have achieved the best sound from speakers following the thirds approach with NO WALL directly behind my head (with at least another third or so to go before meeting the wall behind my hard skull). I have found that reducing wall reflections to be important with a simple wall of records/book on one side to be a aesthetically pleasing substitute.

To address Artto's arguement, I certainly dont think he has finally achieved a total fooling of the listener between live and reproduced music. It is at best, an amazing reproduction, sometimes one that is more pleasing than live! But live instruments in real air have yet to be totall equaled for many reasons, not the least of which is the tremendous compromise of the recording process. And in my opinion, given some of the equipment being used, the room would have to make up a lot for lost ground.

I have heard some amazing systems, some in my own listening environments. I have had goosebumps crawl and hair rise in places I didnt know existed! System matching, component selection, setup, and room attention can go a long way in achieving the goal. However, I think most of what Randy objects to is something I would as well. Even in the best I rooms, we have yet to come up with a system that totally recreates live sound after the sordid affects of running through the recording process and out the equipment chain. IT can come close, and actually BETTER live sound in some instances based on where that live sound is coming from, but the live instrument will always turn a head unlike any reproduction.

kh

ps- I expect to be editing this post as I wrote it on the fly. Also, do not take the above as a complete criticism of the Khorn(but more pointers toward compromises). I would love to try this solution perhaps employing false corners but my current room is totally ill-suited to the task.

[artto]

Kelly,

as a fast response (more to follow later........if I'm still compelled enough to insult you verses just considering the source & forget about it)........

BULL****

( I knew there was a reason I shouldn't even bother posting anything on here. IGNORANCE IS BLISS , isn't it!)

[artto]

In fact, let me end this right now.

We might be all using the same bat (ie: a Louisville Slugger=Klipsch). But I've got news for you. You're not in the same league. Not with me. And certainly not with the likes of Paul Klipsch, or William Snow or Fletcher or Wente or Thuras, etc. (And I thought my ego was big!) Its amazing that guys like you & Randy keep arguing about something you've obviously never had the motivation or opportunity or whatever the reason, to pursue. I figured I could contribute some 25+ years of experience and mistakes with these speakers in the hope that others could share in what I've learned. I guess I'm wrong. Good Bye

[mike stehr]

I sense tension.

[Deang]

Hmmm.

I'm certainly interested in tapping into 25 years of experience dealing with room acoustics. Of course, I don't have K-horns -- just the pitiful excuse for a horn RF-7.

So, since you are done with these guys for a while, how about a professional opinion on my setup?

The sub is now gone, as well as most of the equipment in the rack. I'm now using SET and a 6SN7 based preamp.

The speakers and rack are in the same place. The rear wall is about 15 feet behind my chair.

Thanks,

uhg. Picture is in my next post -- I couldn't get it to attach to this one.

[edster00]

You are a sensitive kinda guy Mike

[Deang]

[Manuel Delaflor]

Deang, do you got bass out from your setup? If the real wall is that far I guess you will have some cancelation at your listening position.

Also, is it on this room where you will be testing your Heresy? If yes, I suggest you to locate them on the corners, to try to achieve as most bass as possible.

[Randy Bey]

Way to go, Kelly.

Scare him off, will ya?

Oh well, easy come, easy go. It was a little difficult getting specifics out of him, he was pretty pumped about his room.

Q - "How do I address my room acoustics?"

A- "Simply read the following twenty technical publications, extrapolate general recommendations into engineering action, and implement! I of course spent years, but if I had trouble learning it, so should you."

And my khorns are on an 18' wall (not 12!)

And my cement is covered in sheet rock (of course!)

And IT DOES make a difference with lower frequencies and dense wall structures. Maybe not 100Hz and above, but I was thinking 100Hz and below.

(Artto, I am joking, a little bit. This is a hostile place, the Internet. People don't always behave the way you would like them to.)

[mobile homeless]

Artto, speaking of utter and complete BULL****, what kind of response is that? That is the most overreactive response I have ever read on here or any other forum in the last errr...three days. What gives? If ignorance is bliss than perhaps I plead the 5th.

Listen, I am not going to waste time with another repost concerning my background in music and audio; do a search in the archives (who cares anyway). I personally thought you overreacted to Randy's post but this last edition has a special flair all its own. Right now, of all the engineers, musicians, audio reviewers(sic), dedicated listeners etc, you are the only one that thinks he has equalled the sound of a live instrument.

Why delve into this type of claptrap? Does this work in other situations? You attacked Randy with the same tactic, something that more closely resembles a 12 yr old after being told he can't sit in the driver's seat with the engine running.

Where was ye olde Paul Klipsch's button when you needed it!

kh

[fini]

Yeah, artto! There's only a couple of guys here that command that God-like, I-know-everything status you feel YOU deserve! Me and Mobile!

P.S. Mobile, I found the part about "hair rising in places you didn't even know existed" a bit creepy...

fini

[mobile homeless]

Thanks for the loving compliment, Fini! Heh...Even at my WORST and most honery, I wouldnt respond like that post from Artto! That would take TWO posts... And that's not my style.

BTW, the "hair rising" line does wonders as a pickup at the local jazz club. Give it a go; send the results via parcel post.

kh

ps- didnt you think this place was getting a bit dull? Almost a month with no one wanting to take the others pancreas out... All work and no play makes organ grinders....ummm...you get the idea.

[Chris Robinson]

Clearly I need an IQ infusion or I'm not doing enough drugs today.

I will add my opinion on this one ... The 45 deg geometry of the Klipschorn does mandate some room designing. There is almost never a room that "by accident" is perfect for Khorns. Hell, I've got them diagonally opposed in my living room. There is NO sweet spot. The 45's are in parallel to each other (about 4' apart) and I've got about a 2x2' box I can stand in to get it "perfect".

OTOH, I can walk around the room and enjoy a room that is TOTALLY CRANKED with music. Pardon the vernacular, but these speakers make you forget about the little stuff and get you into the music in about 10 seconds. Flat. Hell, the music in the rest of the house sounds great.

But in recognition of the geometry issue, I KNEW that I'd have to build/modify a room to get these things optimized ... I posted a thread not too long ago to this effect. Artto responded to it well. But the point is that the 45 degree firing angle DEFINES THE ROOM, not the other way around. This goes to Kelly's point.

I will say that I've NEVER heard natural bass like what I've heard from a Klipschorn ... If you haven't heard it, it will get you. It will do that hair thing ... and I LOVE my Cornwalls. I was suspicious of the Klipschorn, but it IS VERY SPECIAL. My kids need shoes, but I'd spend a lot of money to get the room right.

Yes, it is a sickness and a disease. I need healing.

[AndyKubicki]

Yes, it is a sickness and a disease. I need healing

Here's your Rx: Listen to at least two CDs daily, or as needed.

[artto]

One more for the road......

1. Kelly, your friend is right. (email "Mother Theresa" on the other thread)

2. I never did like fraternities

3. Ok, I apologize Randy, The dimension across the top looks like 12' on my crt. Me being an architect, I just figured you couldn't draw right. (we architects tend to just draw a "typical" & label the dimensions accordingly & "DON NOT SCALE DRAWING").

Everything else still stands however. You need some real lessons in acoustics/physics before you start doubting me. Believe me, your setup is not approaching anything yielding optimum performance. It wouldn't surprise me if it sounded somewhat painful to me, even with the tube amps. (and update that analogue front-end!)

4. KH......I've got news for you. I knew I was going to have problems with you after 1 or 2 of your additional posts. As far as I'm concerned....you can blow it out your ***. Was that I rock I saw on top of one of your amps on your homepage? Looks like the refrigerator is next to the right side Cornwall too. And your Linn turntable is affected by (among other things) the "moon phases"? Get a life.

Cornwalls were my first Klipsch speakers. And I'd be willing to bet that you were "one of those guys" arguing with me in some stereo store 25 years ago about how bad you thought Klipsch was while I insisted that you needed some really clean amplification, preferably tube, AND a proper acoustical environment to bring the best out of them. Now, some years later, you've finally, partially discovered what I discovered decades ago & you are going to tell me what kind of "compromise" wide-stage 3 channel stereo is?..... as if it were Paul Klispch's personal brainstorm to cover up a major flaw, while you continue to play catch-up with someone who's obviously gone to extends that you probably never dreamed of. And YOU and RANDY are going to tell me, that what I already know, is not possible? I've got news for ya Kelly. You haven't got a clue as to what's possible with the components you're using and the environment you're using them in. I've been there. Same/similar gear....years ago. Seems to me you should be asking more questions instead posting inane criticisms based on your personal theories and trying to cover up it by preceding it with statements like "PWK wasn't stupid". My God Kelly.

Everything I have posted on here has been backed up by published documentation. "A picture says a thousand words". I have posted a number of those as well to help explain some of my posts & the documentaion. What have you provided? An opinion. Nothing more. Just an opinion. And as far as I have been able to tell, its a somewhat unqualified one.

By the way. Have I told you about the importance of room acoustics, the ultimate component? (well, ok, the recording itself is just as important).

[mobile homeless]

You definitely have some problems that you have not addressed. Indeed, from where I stand, it seems there is some definite slap echo still evident. Perhaps it is coming from your Crown gear. At least you have been there...and evidently, you decided to stay. Quite frankly, in my opinion, all the room treatment in the world cant make up for two things:

1. Your CROWNing achievment.

2. The persistant clanging and ringing within your skull.

Good to see you back, though! May your Luxman dreams be answered.

kh

[Deang]

Man, you guys are brutal.

[Invidiosulus]

My goodness you guys are harsh.

There are some subjects on which I am fairly well versed and occasionally(at school) I meet someone who likes to show off their knowledge on the same subject.

Even when I know more then these people and I disagree with their point of view I would not be so arrogant as to say "blow it out your ***"

It is a very childish personality who resorts to name calling with people he does not even know.

It is great if you have a lot(and I mean a LOT) of knowledge about audio and room acoustics.

However we are still dealing with personal tastes when it comes to the reproduction of sound, this is why some people buy klipsch and some don't, some people don't like horn speakers and some do.

Regardless of what is a scientifically accurate reproduction of sound to certain people some speakers sound "better".

I know I have a cheap(relatively speaking) system and a "bad" room to listen in.

I still enjoy listening to music very much, indeed it has become my main pastime while at school.

You can not even begin to compare the amount of listening pleasure to a persons scientific audio knowledge or the amount they spend on their system.

Just my 2 cents.

Peace, Josh