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18 minutes ago, gnarly said:

Bogus amogus big time!¬†ūüôā imho.

 

In a world where people swap wires and roll tubes, searching for that last 0.001% of audio bliss, pre-ring is a big deal. It's certainly a much bigger deal than the sonic difference between crossover capacitors.

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The sound degradation in the FabFilter youtube is very easily heard, so i'm not sure what you mean by saying it needs to be lossless to be heard.

 

I think the worst MP3 would make such a contrived comparison obvious.

That's my point really, it's contrived crappola for marketing purposes....

 

It's not representative of any real world pre-ringing issues, imho.

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16 minutes ago, Edgar said:

 

In a world where people swap wires and roll tubes, searching for that last 0.001% of audio bliss, pre-ring is a big deal. It's certainly a much bigger deal than the sonic difference between crossover capacitors.

 

Yeppers, the 0.01% hit that pre-ringing might maybe bring, is indeed 10x larger than the 0.001% hit to audio bliss that audiofools typically worry about, huh?  ......haha

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3 minutes ago, gnarly said:

 

Yeppers, the 0.01% hit that pre-ringing might maybe bring, is indeed 10x larger than the 0.001% hit to audio bliss that audiofools typically worry about, huh?  ......haha

 

OK, if demonstrably audible pre-ring is not important, then what is important? There is still plenty of debate over whether phase shift or group delay are sufficiently audible to be problems, yet you are going to great lengths to eliminate them. How do you choose which audible effect to worry about, and which to ignore?

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43 minutes ago, gnarly said:

The sound degradation in the FabFilter youtube is very easily heard, so i'm not sure what you mean by saying it needs to be lossless to be heard.

The example digital audio files (the sound of pre-ringing) need to be lossless files, not AAC, in order to hear what the guy giving the example heard.  After he created the example files, he uploaded them to YouTube, which converts the files from lossless to AAC (lossy).  That's what I was commenting on--nothing more.

 

Chris

 

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1 hour ago, Edgar said:

 

OK, if demonstrably audible pre-ring is not important, then what is important? There is still plenty of debate over whether phase shift or group delay are sufficiently audible to be problems, yet you are going to great lengths to eliminate them. How do you choose which audible effect to worry about, and which to ignore?

 

What  demonstrably audible pre-ring are you referring to?

 

I hope not that FabFilter youtube....that thing's ridiculous imo.

I mean, what is the high Q filter in it, min-phase? or lin-phase?

And what is the point of it even being in place?

If it's min-phase it should be fixed with min-phase....applying lin phase to it is a joke.

If it's lin-phase, it's even more of a joke...

Pure contrived marketing imo......

 

 

How do I choose which audible effect to worry about, and which to ignore ?....

Good question...ūüôā

 

I guess it's as simple as the audible effects i can hear in my real world builds, and my real world testing.

No hear, no worry.

Can't really say i feel i need to read about, what to worry about...

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19 hours ago, Chris A said:

The example digital audio files (the sound of pre-ringing) need to be lossless files, not AAC, in order to hear what the guy giving the example heard.  After he created the example files, he uploaded them to YouTube, which converts the files from lossless to AAC (lossy).  That's what I was commenting on--nothing more.

 

Chris

 

¬†Gotcha. Thanks¬†ūüôā

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20 hours ago, Edgar said:

 

OK, if demonstrably audible pre-ring is not important, then what is important? There is still plenty of debate over whether phase shift or group delay are sufficiently audible to be problems, yet you are going to great lengths to eliminate them. How do you choose which audible effect to worry about, and which to ignore?

 

Hi Edgar, in my previous reply, all I did was push against pre-ringing being significant.

And your question did ask what is important (to me)..... and as you said, i do go to great lengths to eliminate phase shift/group delay... 

 

So to try to explain further...

Logically and intuitively, flat mag and phase make sense to me for reproduction. 

I think everybody is on board with flat mag (subject to house curves and preferences of course).  But we all know how much phase audibility is debated.

Personally, i want to do what i think and intuit, is technically right, whether audible or not. Seems like a can't loose, and will probably win, as well as learn something strategy.

And so far, the flat mag and phase effort, along with extending it to smooth polars, has been paying big audio dividends.

 

Subjectively I could wax on alot...but i don't really see the point...suffice it to say , tonality, clarity, transients, low end dynamics  are making me a very happy camper.

Of course, i can't really separate the processing gains from the speakers' acoustic design gains, but since almost all the considerably varied speaker designs i've attempted have shown similar sonic gains, i have to credit much of the sonics to a common processing technique.

 

Anyway, if i may go back to the cost of potential pre-ringing vs the gains linear phase might bring...

here's an example of the tradeoff (as i see it), that illustrates the order of magnitudes difference between the tradeoffs plus and minus.

 

This is a measured not simulated, linear-phase LR 96 dB/oct electrical xover, where both the low-pass and high-pass sides have been summed together.

414950846_LinearphasexoverLR16thorder1kHzSTEP.jpg.251528e2bd13bca09622049529cfda88.jpg

 

For me, there isn't much pre-ring, due to complementary cancellation.

What small pre-ringing there is, seems like a tiny price to pay for the outstanding Step Response.

 

As i'm sure you well know, only first order can achieve a step response like that.

And this is 16th order !!  Gives so many degrees of freedom combining drivers acoustically.

 

I feel like a kid in a DSP candy store...who walks out into a rocking live concert Lol

 

 

 

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

Any thoughts on the Shure DFR22 (2x2) and P4080 (4x8) units?  They can be found very cheap (<$100-$200) and used to be decent units (??).  Think the software does NOT run on WIN10, but can always use a "simulator."

 

Yes; Xilica ... just bid $700 for a 4080 but "lost."  But was "overkill" for my application anyhow. :) 

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On 8/10/2021 at 4:46 PM, Emile said:

Any thoughts on the Shure DFR22 (2x2) and P4080 (4x8) units?  They can be found very cheap (<$100-$200) and used to be decent units (??).  Think the software does NOT run on WIN10, but can always use a "simulator."

 

Yes; Xilica ... just bid $700 for a 4080 but "lost."  But was "overkill" for my application anyhow. :) 


Shure DFR22:  24B 48KHz, Bit-rate isn't high enough to keep the 'brickwall filter phase-hash' out of the audio spectrum.  

I was hoping to set the minimum at 24b/96KHz when I started the thread, minimum bit rate of 4:1 above the audibility. 

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1 hour ago, Thaddeus Smith said:

My yamaha sp2060 unit runs at 24/96, for what it's worth. And has digital aes inputs. And you can still find and run the software to remotely configure over ethernet.

 

I also like the Yamaha unit (if you can find a used one at a good price). In addition to the above, it turns out the digital input can also handle digital S/PDIF (keep the cable short and you may need to short pin 1 & 3 on the XLR). Although the filters are not FIR, it has provisions for adjusting the phase over a prescribed bandwidth. For some this is a nice feature since it can clean up some of the phases shifts that are otherwise inherent in DSP crossover settings. 

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5 hours ago, PrestonTom said:

 

I also like the Yamaha unit (if you can find a used one at a good price). In addition to the above, it turns out the digital input can also handle digital S/PDIF (keep the cable short and you may need to short pin 1 & 3 on the XLR). Although the filters are not FIR, it has provisions for adjusting the phase over a prescribed bandwidth. For some this is a nice feature since it can clean up some of the phases shifts that are otherwise inherent in DSP crossover settings. 

 

That's probably the one big roadblock - finding one used and affordable.

 

The spdif to aes works fine for me as well with a standard monoprice rca to XLR cable.

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Are you kidding, there is an entire world of options out there. The Xilica XP does not have digital inputs and nor does it have have FIRs. For some this will be an issue and I am not interested in debating an individual's choice. The XD series remedies this but they are even more expensive. 

 

To start: 1) how many channels do you need, 2) how many outputs do you need 3) is digital input important, 4) Approximately how much filtering do you need, 5) is the user interface important or slightly important, 6) are FIR vs IIR important, 7) do you think correcting the phase spectrum is important or very important, 8)  Is the noise floor after the DAC a small issue or big issue,  9) VERY IMPORTANTLY : is cost a consideration and are you willing to buy used? 

 

It is easy to say that "I want everything" but that gets expensive .... "

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The dbx driverack VENUE360 is a three analog input, six out, or 2 aes inputs. It has wireless control (ios/android, etc) 24/96... sqeaks in under a grand. They need a pretty hot input signal, and has other feature more suited to p.a. use I am aiming for it as I do some p.a. work.

 

They have a newer one with Dante built in, which would really be nice.

 

Lots of options out there...

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