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[FIXED] Cornwall 1 bad crossover help


gsgleason
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3 minutes ago, KT88 said:

 

 

This (the list below) was by Mouser for Germany in Euro but the type number is the same worldwide, the upper position in the list is the 2.2 mF type made by Nichicon. As I said before, perhaps this very type is available with a „worse“ tolerance to select some pieces of slightly lower value than 2.2mF to meet 2.0mF.

 

I have 2.2 mF in my Lascala and so far (before I get closer values to 2 mF) I am happily satisfied as is.

 

 

Position

Mouser-Teilenummer
Kundenartikelnummer
Herstellerteilenummer
Beschreibung
Gewünschtes
Lieferdatum
Geschätztes
Lieferdatum
Menge Stückpreis
(EUR)
Gesamtpreis
(EUR)

1
http://www.mouser.com/images/icon_rohs.png1
647-QAK2E225JTP
QAK2E225JTP
2.2uF 5% 250V
MAI 10, 2021   6 3.68 22.08

2
http://www.mouser.com/images/icon_rohs.png1
80-A50IT4680AA60J
A50IT4680AA60J
250V 6.8uF 5%
MAI 10, 2021   6 4.83 28.98
 
1http://www.mouser.com/images/icon_rohs.pngRoHS: Konform

 

The 10% ones are 2.86 USD each if I get 10.  That would be $29 for 10 of them, which is kind of a lot as I would end up spending as much as getting expensive caps in the first place.

 

I assume matching is pretty important?

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If you haven’t already, you should slightly loosen and retighten the screws on the network side too. 
 

I’m all about shiny, but I wouldn’t worry about that wire unless you decide to completely rebuild them. If it bugs you, some alcohol/rag does a good job. 

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1 hour ago, gsgleason said:

 

Yes indeed.  I'm now researching capacitors that won't break the bank.

 

Jantzen, for example, doesn't make a 2 uf. They have 1.8 and 2.2.  Which should be considered?

whichever one is cheaper. There won't be a dime's worth of difference in the sound.

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Going back to the dielectric differences, you can see the difference in linearity on a scope. Not all dielectrics have the same constant which lends certain types to have more distortion than others. Kinda like looking at B-H curves for magnetics. Let's not forget about hysteresis either leading to distortion from non-linearity.

 

Paper in Oil is actually more linear or 'cleaner' compared to polyester which is probably why it just sounds the smoothest overall and people seem to prefer them.

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8 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

Going back to the dielectric differences, you can see the difference in linearity on a scope. Not all dielectrics have the same constant which lends certain types to have more distortion than others. Kinda like looking at B-H curves for magnetics. Let's not forget about hysteresis either leading to distortion from non-linearity.

 

Paper in Oil is actually more linear or 'cleaner' compared to polyester which is probably why it just sounds the smoothest overall and people seem to prefer them.

So what about polyester in oil, Smarta$$?

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12 minutes ago, gsgleason said:

 

The 10% ones are 2.86 USD each if I get 10.  That would be $29 for 10 of them, which is kind of a lot as I would end up spending as much as getting expensive caps in the first place.

 

I assume matching is pretty important?

For a first try just buy only the number of caps you need. Then I would take 5% so the value will not raise too much. As I said I am pretty fine with 2.2mF which is almost in the tolerance zone of the original caps.

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23 minutes ago, gsgleason said:

 

The 10% ones are 2.86 USD each if I get 10.  That would be $29 for 10 of them, which is kind of a lot as I would end up spending as much as getting expensive caps in the first place.

 

I assume matching is pretty important?

Buy the kit from JEM, it will have everything you need, plus those parts were selected and tested as part of the total design of that network to provide you the original sound that Paul W. Klipsch and Klipsch & Associates intended. You don't have to worry about buying minimum amounts that you will never use, and you don't have to worry about different types of caps alternating the sound, etc. The Chief Engineer at Klipsch, Roy Delgado, set out to furnish JEM with the caps, parts, etc. to give you the original. 

 

Once you have those, and you know what it is supposed to sound like there are many on here that can help you if you want to venture down the path of swapping in higher dollar caps, etc. Frequently they sound "different" and some say the difference is "better", only you can be the judge of that. 

 

Anything else might get you to the original sound, or it might not. You won't know, and neither will anyone else because they haven't tested and compared them to the lab standards like Roy, including in their chamber with a laboratory grade and calibrated microphone. 

 

Good luck. 

 

Travis

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12 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

My daughter winds caps by hand if anyone is interested. 

 

I have done this as an experiment, all you need is foil and paper. Tape the leads to the plates and roll it all up then dip in wax. To my surprise they actually worked but I would never trust it enough to leave in circuit. Well, except maybe in a guitar tone circuit that is a pretty easy life for a capacitor.

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19 minutes ago, Travis In Austin said:

Buy the kit from JEM, it will have everything you need, plus those parts were selected and tested as part of the total design of that network to provide you the original sound that Paul W. Klipsch and Klipsch & Associates intended. You don't have to worry about buying minimum amounts that you will never use, and you don't have to worry about different types of caps alternating the sound, etc. The Chief Engineer at Klipsch, Roy Delgado, set out to furnish JEM with the caps, parts, etc. to give you the original. 

 

Once you have those, and you know what it is supposed to sound like there are many on here that can help you if you want to venture down the path of swapping in higher dollar caps, etc. Frequently they sound "different" and some say the difference is "better", only you can be the judge of that. 

 

Anything else might get you to the original sound, or it might not. You won't know, and neither will anyone else because they haven't tested and compared them to the lab standards like Roy, including in their chamber with a laboratory grade and calibrated microphone. 

 

Good luck. 

 

Travis

Travis, I hate to disagree. But what gsgleason buys from JEM are the exact polyester types I recommended, and which Roy identified as the most ideal types for the Heritage Series. The JEM polyester caps are not voodoo, nor are they wound by virgins under a full moon. Sorry. I just want to give my 2cent. The Nicichon polyester types are top notch caps beyond all quality doubt. At JEM they cost $90 for the AA frequency crossover, for six polyester caps, three per xover. I had inquired with JEM. In my case it would have been double with customs, shipping and import tax.
Sorry, I would buy (first!) the types for a fraction of the money from Mouser and (for the first try) accept a slight deviation of the values.

It is not a risky investment to see if you like the polyester types at all from Mouser. Buying the same ones from JEM at its price is risky if you don't like them in principal. 

If you like the Mouser grades and want the exact values you can always buy the JEM ones later...or PIO for probably less cost than what JEM is asking for Mylar.

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24 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

 

The linearity and hysteresis of the dielectric remains the same whether it's in oil or not.

And the original Aerovox cans in oil were also Polyester types. I don‘t say PIO could not be better but Polyester is the starting point.

BTW when I would test PIO I would start with the first cap before the autoformer only. Regarding the tweeter I first would keep the Polyester types because they are in series later in the chain and the tweeter would „profit“ (or get influenced) of the PIO sound anyway. Perhaps there is even an advantage due to the mix to keep clarity in the treble region. If this is not satisfying one can change the tweeter caps later on. Altogether my approach could save some amount.

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28 minutes ago, KT88 said:

Travis, I hate to disagree. But what gsgleason buys from JEM are the exact polyester types I recommended, and which Roy identified as the most ideal types for the Heritage Series. The JEM polyester caps are not voodoo, nor are they wound by virgins under a full moon. Sorry. I just want to give my 2cent. The Nicichon polyester types are top notch caps beyond all quality doubt. At JEM they cost $90 for the AA frequency crossover, for six polyester caps, three per xover. I had inquired with JEM. In my case it would have been double with customs, shipping and import tax.
Sorry, I would buy (first!) the types for a fraction of the money from Mouser and (for the first try) accept a slight deviation of the values.

It is not a risky investment to see if you like the polyester types at all from Mouser. Buying the same ones from JEM at its price is risky if you don't like them in principal. 

If you like the Mouser grades and want the exact values you can always buy the JEM ones later...or PIO for probably less cost than what JEM is asking for Mylar.

Sorry, but you don't KNOW that. 

 

There is simply one man on the fact of the planet that can tell you for sure. He took the time to verify it and put it with a dealer that had reached out to Roy to ask where they could get original parts because he had gotten so called "replacements" that altered the sound. 

 

Maybe the answer to this is just to come up with a canned response that provides the alternatives and the only allowable response it to link the canned response. 

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20 minutes ago, KT88 said:

BTW when I would test PIO I would start with the first cap before the autoformer only. Regarding the tweeter I first would keep the Polyester types because they are in series later in the chain and the tweeter would „profit“ (or get influenced) of the PIO sound anyway. Perhaps there is even an advantage due to the mix to keep clarity in the treble region. If this is not satisfying one can change the tweeter caps later on. Altogether my approach could save some amount.

 

Paper capacitors are smoother in the Tweeter circuit. The very early Klipsch crossovers used paper and then switched to polyester. Polyester as a dielectric has a more grainy sound to them due to their higher non-linearity. Paper seems to always test as 'smooth' during listening and I am willing to wager it's because of cleaner linearity of the paper capacitors.

 

There is a simple test with a scope if you want to play around with seeing this phenomena with your eyes. Ceramics are the worst and come out as an S shape badly as it's extremely non-linear giving the highest distortion.

 

I am not knocking polyester, most probably will never hear a difference but others here have noticed how smooth PIO caps can be in the Klipsch crossovers compared to polyester. I heard Dean's theory about the self heal attribute to metallized types but I feel all polyesters inherently have this sound due to the dielectric properties.

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  • gsgleason changed the title to [FIXED] Cornwall 1 bad crossover help

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