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How to go best way from XLR to RCA and vice versa.


KT88

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Just now, Schu said:

what would be the effect of doing it one way versus the other when going from a pre to the xilica or from the xilica to an amp... or both applications?

 

the reason I ask is because I am still struggling with some performance issues based in and around the Xilica when using these and the Jubilee... not that it's the fault of the cables alone.

The outputs of the Xilica are a different topology than the Yamaha. The Monoprice cables or any similar wired like "cinch to XLR" can be used on the Xilica outputs as well as the inputs. What kind of performance issues are you having? Not enough drive? Filter settings? Noise?

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Ive experienced a substantial roll off in the HF despite having boosted that region by 10-12db... probably in the +12k range.

 

and I have been unable to master the LF bloating that is occurring in my room.

 

I dont think the LF issue is cable related, but a HF issue could be. I probably just need to get in there and keep massaging the settings.

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On 5/14/2022 at 1:57 AM, babadono said:

@KT88

 

 *****correction of my post yesterday******

 

the SP 2060 is pro gear. It has a cross coupled output stage. So it CAN be used in a connection where the minus output gets shorted to ground of the input it is driving. AFAIC this is not good practice and has potential problems. Google "cross coupled output stage" if you want to learn more than you ever wanted to know.

Personally I would use an ISO MAX on the SP 2060 output to unbalanced amplifier input. You will be fine with the "cinch to XLR" cable that @MicroMara posted for your pre amp output to SP 2060 inputs.

 

Thank you very much, babadono for identifying the type of XLR output stage of the Yamaha SP2060. So if I as an (interested) layman understand it correctly, the more modern types of cross-coupled output stages offer the advantage that in the event of a short circuit from XLR pin 3 to ground, not as much current flows as with older circuits, which have definitely affected the power supply and also the signal. This article helped me a bit and I hope I have read it correctly:

 

https://www.eetimes.com/cross-coupled-output-stages-for-balanced-audio-interfaces/

 

But still I lose a lot of head room even with a cross-coupled output stage circuit if I use only one phase. And of course I have much earlier clipping if I want to achieve the same SPL as with a proper fully balanced solution. Well, this problem could maybe be solved with a "work around". Because my RCA Quad power amp has a quite high input sensitivity of 350 mV. This could mean that I could stay away from clipping in my living room. Plus the Jubilees have 108 dB, so I think that could work. I accept the disadvantage that I can't run the Yamaha SP2060 at full level in the AD/DA section, but in the past it was very good in resolution even with quiet signals (what degrades the resolution of this Yamaha unit a lot is if I had to compensate a miss match of e.g. 10 dB by using the Yamahas digital lowering steps, it sounds much worse if I have to cut 10dB the treble against the bass or vice versa). This is the main reason why I now want to use the same amps for bass and treble, but that's another story).

 

In the linked article is written further::

 

„Another issue with active balanced output stages is that cross-coupled stages exhibit higher noise floor when measuring an individual output phase with reference to ground. These stages have both common-mode and differential noise; the differential noise floor is often about 30 dB lower. Thus, when driving single-ended loads, users must take care to ground the unused output leg, and not leave it floating.“

 

 

If I understand it correctly, then I can't just take pin 1 and pin 2, leaving pin 3 „open“ because this kind of cross coupled output stage contains amplifier noise which is balanced out with a correct balanced connection in a similar way as it happens with the interference from outside in very long transmission cables but not when I use just one phase. I remember reading about users not being able to eliminate such a hiss when running an unbalanced device behind the XLR output of their balanced device (whichever, but probably cross coupled).

So pin 3 must be connected to pin 1. Well, before I spend a lot of money on transformers, after all four pieces, I just try it out first, so that I connect pin 3 and pin 1 together in the same way as it should go with the input cable from RCA also XLR without problems. As a second I would try it also if I connect to the power amp input only pin 2 and pin 1, maybe the Yamaha makes not so much hiss. I wonder if I could put pin3 to negative of RCA, pin 2 to plus of RCA to create a „full swing“ and pin 3 to chassis ground....if that would be a different level, and if it makes sense.

 

Anyway now I am at least a bit more confident that I would not damage the Yamaha unit instantly due to a short between pin 1 and pin 3, I will see how it sounds…

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@KT88 yes you will lose the benefits of differential signaling by grounding the minus output. But the cross coupled output will double the signal drive on the non grounded output so you will not lose signal strength. I don't know if you picked up on that detail. The guys that first figured this out are up there on the level of PWK and @Chief bonehead.

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57 minutes ago, babadono said:

@KT88 yes you will lose the benefits of differential signaling by grounding the minus output. But the cross coupled output will double the signal drive on the non grounded output so you will not lose signal strength. I don't know if you picked up on that detail. The guys that first figured this out are up there on the level of PWK and @Chief bonehead.

 

I don't want to confuse anyone. I am very interested but not sufficiently trained in electronics. The article says that I lose gain of 6 dB but that I have no hiss when I connect pin 3 to pin 1 (effectively using only pin 2 on the way to RCA). If I understand you correctly, it is that I may have less signal to noise ratio when I do it this way, but that the swing between 1 and 3 crosses over due to the CCOS circuitry to the voltage potential between pin 1 and pin 2 and adds up to the total AC voltage?

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6 minutes ago, Marvel said:

Look up jensen-transformers.com

 

They hae ransformers to do that

 

 

 

 

Thanks Marvel, I know, but this way I spend at least 1K to get four transformers or even more. I would do so as a last choice if anything else fails.

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19 minutes ago, KT88 said:

 

Thanks Marvel, I know, but this way I spend at least 1K to get four transformers or even more. I would do so as a last choice if anything else fails.

Edcors are not Jensens, but offer most of the performance for a fraction of the price.

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41 minutes ago, Edgar said:

Edcors are not Jensens, but offer most of the performance for a fraction of the price.

 

Thanks a lot, Edgar. I will see if I get those (or similar) in Germany, when I order from Mouser which I frequently do I have free shipping from 50€ w/o VAT amount on. I will have a look at them.

 

10 minutes later, Mouser do not offer them, Edcors itself do not ship to Germany. Anyway it is a good move to have a look for such a kind of transformer.

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1 hour ago, KT88 said:

If I understand you correctly, it is that I may have less signal to noise ratio when I do it this way, but that the swing between 1 and 3 crosses over due to the CCOS circuitry to the voltage potential between pin 1 and pin 2 and adds up to the total AC voltage?

Yes you will lose the benefits of differential (balanced) lines  i.e hardly any CMR but you will not lose signal strength. Trouble occurs when the single ended signal reaches clipping...but you're not going to do that right? Like a madman roadie turning up the main fader on the mixer to 11.

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51 minutes ago, KT88 said:

 

Thanks a lot, Edgar. I will see if I get those (or similar) in Germany, when I order from Mouser which I frequently do I have free shipping from 50€ w/o VAT amount on. I will have a look at them.

 

10 minutes later, Mouser do not offer them, Edcors itself do not ship to Germany. Anyway it is a good move to have a look for such a kind of transformer.

Good choice 👍  Mouser is my first address as well , ordered Stealth semi conductures there yesterday to continue with the moddy on my DYNACO PAS 4 Tube Preamp

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I'm using an ART CLEANBox Pro line level adapter between my Yamaha AVR (RCA) and the E-V Dx38 processor (XLR).  This provides stereo line level matching between the home audio and pro sound units, and is a 2-way design.  It goes RCA to XLR and has separate connections for XLR to RCA.

 

Info here:  https://artproaudio.com/product/cleanbox-pro-dual-channel-level-converter/

 

As well, the Cleanbox is inexpensive, at around $90.  Finally, it reduces noise in the signal chain, which is helpful with high sensitivity speakers.

 

I see that Thomann carries the CLEANBox, so that should be helpful  https://www.thomann.de/gb/art_cleanbox_pro.htm

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https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/small-cheap-pre-amp-card-boards-sound-quality.29547/post-1033620

 

That link is to a couple of devices that will do what you want. I have used the 1646 balanced out and there is no audible increase in noise.

You may have to find someone to build a box and power supply, I just built a box with a 15-0-15 volt power supply and mounted RCA sockets for input and XLR outputs.

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7 hours ago, MicroMara said:

If you´ve finished your project , I´ll come to cologne to have a listening session with you , less than 100 km distance for me from my hometown.

It will take some weeks but I will just send you a message when all is installed, You are welcome to be my guest👍😀 Then we can see if Quad sounds better to your likes or Mcintosh together with the Jubilees, and also if a Cabernet fits better to the hornspeakers sound or a Syrah.🤠

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27 minutes ago, KT88 said:

It will take some weeks but I will just send you a message when all is installed, You are welcome to be my guest👍😀 Then we can see if Quad sounds better to your likes or Mcintosh together with the Jubilees, and also if a Cabernet fits better to the hornspeakers sound or a Syrah.🤠

YES SIRRE , let me know when you´re ready . A cabernet souvingon will be fine or whatever will be in our minds than. It's exciting

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12 minutes ago, babadono said:

Don't you Germans drink bier?:emotion-22:

most of us, but not everybody , always a problem with the traffic police controls in germans,  because we have the most dense traffic network in europe. One beer will be fine a second can cause troubble when they catch you, a third isn´t possible, than your driving license is gone

 

Cheers Babadono

 

beer.gif.8c5896ae8b8f3563cb1edeba2016475a.gif

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