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Hersey IVs vs. RP-600M IIs - Restaurant Fit Out Setup Help - First In My Country


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Reaching out for help from anyone in the community with knowledge, advice and expertise when installing a system in a commercial restaurant space. Writing this in a beginner-friendly tone because that is where I am now. I've been a lurker taking notes who has finally convinced a friend to splurge on a sound system that will be an exciting feature of his restaurant that I'm collaborating on. A high-efficiency horn-loaded system powered by SET tube amplifiers is the path I've chosen to approach this project.

 

The restaurant's build is almost complete, with interior finishings currently being applied. I've attached images of the floor plan and sections of the space with coloured markings for the whereabouts of the D.J. booth and speaker placement proposal for anyone interested in size and layout (yellow: booth, pink: speakers). A key with materials used is also included - there isn't much leeway to apply acoustic treatment. Maybe pyramid foam within the waffle spacing of the concrete ceiling. I also feel like the large floor to ceiling windows and wall tiles would create a lot of reflections, especially with how I'm planning to orient the speakers. I have suggested adding thick drapes to help remedy this for the owners, and there would be a few carpet art pieces hung that help in absorption as well.

 

I'm proposing 2 budget options:

 

Option 1 / Big-Budget Features:

  1. 2-3x pairs of Klipsch Hersey IVs - suspended or mounted on walls/columns upside down with a tilt angle. The horns would point downwards at the customers and the woofer closer to the ceiling to create a similar low-end response when placed ordinarily in a floor-standing position. The speakers will either be suspended by eye bolts and fender washers hung from a concrete beam waffle structure or mounted on french cleats on the structure's columns. They will be powered by:
  2. 2-3x Decware Super Zen Triode Amplifier would love to pair the Decware tube amps with the HIVs, but I'm concerned if they have enough oomph to drive the speakers to volume when it's a busy day at the restaurant
  3. 1x Condesa Carmen in-house analogue D.J. rotary mixer
  4. 2x Technics SL-1200MK7 Turntables
  5. 1x DAC/node streamer - undecided [BLUESOUND NODE or the AUDIOPHONICS RASPDAC an option for this budget]
  6. (DAC connected through USB or wirelessly streamed via Spotify Connect - Streamed via an iPad through a lighting cable to USB adapter or wirelessly through Spotify Connect connected via a node, respectively (streaming via chrome-cast is not an option because of its inability of gapless playback)). I've also heard that the new YAMAHA RX receivers act as streamers for Spotify Connect and other applications.
    1. Possibility of an independent DAC Schiit Modi 3+ for better sound (as subjective as that is for the setup)
  7. 1x Receiver to route all the incoming signal sources to the designated amplifiers and speakers - Need help in this department.

 

Option 2 / Small Budget differentials:

  1. 3-4x Klipsch RP-600M II - also considering fitting them upside down with a tilt angle. The horns point downwards at the customers and the woofer closer to the ceiling to create a similar low-end response when placed ordinarily in a floor-standing position. But the 600 IIs would be mounted on the walls/columns versus being suspended from the ceiling.
  2. 3-4x Reisong A10 - I heard great things & felt they'd be a good fit for the more budget friendlier option, but I'm concerned if they have enough oomph like the Decware Zen triodes to drive the speaker in a busy day
  3. 1x Vaira Instruments RD20 in-house analogue D.J. rotary mixer

 

There are a few missing puzzle pieces in the system due to my lack of experience, and I was hoping that anyone could kindly assist me. Looking for a receiver that will take the 3 different sources (in-house D.J. mixer output, DAC-Streamer Spotify output & guest D.J.'s controller output) and send the output signal to all the amplifiers powering the speakers. Would home theatre A.V. receivers work? I've checked the backplate of most A.V. receiver products, and they all have 'surround', 'front', 'center' labels for the different speaker outputs. I'm worried about whether each pair of speakers would get other signals - which wouldn't work in my application.

 

I've also done my best to map out how the sound system component network would work with a resident D.J. system in a booth, guest D.J. with an external mixer, and DAC for regular musical playlist programming when there's no D.J. performing.

 

Would love to hear everyone's advice and thoughts on how I've designed the proposed system and mapped it out. I'm not sure if I've got the number of speakers right - it's tricky since where I'm located doesn't have proper HiFi audio dealers in the country - I can't test any components. The purchasing decision must be made based on faith and expertise. As you now learned, a lot would be riding on this

 

This project aims to bring a hi-fi experience to a population and culture that is not exposed to it and be inclusive in presenting it the best way possible with the budgets at hand.

 

Your input would be greatly appreciated!

 

P.S. Any thoughts of anyone who had listened to the active Superwax mini by Pitt & Giblin from Australia compared to Hersey's or other speakers from the heritage line-up?

 

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Edited by Bob de Builder
Incorrect attached images
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Welcome to the Forum, we need to get you the email address for Klipsch Professional Systems Design Services. You submit plans like you have and a Klipsch Systems Engineer will get back to you with recommendations. @Chief bonehead may have it, I know @Trey Cannon is familiar with this, but I'm not sure how soon they will see this given the long weekend. 

 

Travis

 

P.S.: I found the email address where you should send the plans and questions: prosystemdesign@klipsch.com <prosystemdesign@klipsch.com

 

I found that link here:

 

https://www.klipsch.com/pro/permanent-installation

 

You can go here for some of their "Install Stores" including Chipotle with Heresy's (inverted) going in many locations. 

 

https://www.klipsch.com/blog/category/install-stories

 

However, they are in hundreds of places that they don't even mention: Hard Rock Hotels, departments stores, MLB stadiums, and on and on. 

 

Hope this helped, 

 

Travis

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11 hours ago, Bob de Builder said:

Reaching out for help

 

I would look into  4 pairs  of KPT -250   or Heresy IV  ,   definitely reach out to @Trey Cannon  for help .

https://www.klipsch.com/pro/cinema/cinema-surround-speakers/3-way-cinema-surrounds

 

  for the mixer , A rotary mixer can work and so will the 2x Technics TT's  .

 

there are low cost  amps for restaurants  with Network /DSP , up to 100Vrms speaker loads   , https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/cdi-4-300

The rest of the equipment is up to you ,  but the basics are here .

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You've got a restaurant, not a nightclub! You've got waaay too much high end audio gear for this application, and your patrons aren't going to care nor notice.

 

They just want good background music that is not so loud that it competes with their conversation.

 

You need in-wall or ceiling mounted speakers spaced properly so the sound level is EVEN throughout the listening area. The speakers should be transformer coupled to a 25 or 70V PA amp so you can run a lot of speakers on one amp, with small gauge wiring. There's no reason why you couldn't still use Klipsch in-wall or ceiling mounted speakers with outboard transformers that have separate volume controls.

 

You need to talk to a sound installation company, or if you want to do it yourself, check out  Bogen's System Design Guide.

 

P.S. I am not affiliated with Bogen; I just happen to work on in-house PA systems for certain public buildings.

 

 

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16 hours ago, Bob de Builder said:

2-3x Decware Super Zen Triode Amplifier would love to pair the Decware tube amps with the HIVs, but I'm concerned if they have enough oomph to drive the speakers to volume when it's a busy day at the restaurant

Hello,  welcome to the forum.

 

FYI I have direct experience with each of the below.  Certainly agree with Travis above to contact the Pro division.

 

And........You should realize that there is at least a 12 month wait for Decware.

 

16 hours ago, Bob de Builder said:

I've also heard that the new YAMAHA RX receivers act as streamers for Spotify Connect and other applications.

Yes they do and work very well.

 

16 hours ago, Bob de Builder said:

1x DAC/node streamer - undecided [BLUESOUND NODE or the AUDIOPHONICS RASPDAC an option for this budget]

BLUESOUND NODE are excellent.

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8 hours ago, Travis In Austin said:

Welcome to the Forum, we need to get you the email address for Klipsch Professional Systems Design Services. You submit plans like you have and a Klipsch Systems Engineer will get back to you with recommendations. @Chief bonehead may have it, I know @Trey Cannon is familiar with this, but I'm not sure how soon they will see this given the long weekend. 

 

Travis

 

P.S.: I found the email address where you should send the plans and questions: prosystemdesign@klipsch.com <prosystemdesign@klipsch.com

 

I found that link here:

 

https://www.klipsch.com/pro/permanent-installation

 

You can go here for some of their "Install Stores" including Chipotle with Heresy's (inverted) going in many locations. 

 

https://www.klipsch.com/blog/category/install-stories

 

However, they are in hundreds of places that they don't even mention: Hard Rock Hotels, departments stores, MLB stadiums, and on and on. 

 

Hope this helped, 

 

Travis

The reaction I got from the community is very welcoming and understanding, I just wanted to say thank you to all!

Reaching out to the email you shared as the local Klipsch dealer here only supplies the basic home theatre systems and has no knowledge of pro system design, much appreciated.

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8 hours ago, 001 said:

I would look into  4 pairs  of KPT -250   or Heresy IV  ,   definitely reach out to @Trey Cannon  for help .

https://www.klipsch.com/pro/cinema/cinema-surround-speakers/3-way-cinema-surrounds

 

  for the mixer , A rotary mixer can work and so will the 2x Technics TT's  .

 

there are low cost  amps for restaurants  with Network /DSP , up to 100Vrms speaker loads   , https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/cdi-4-300

The rest of the equipment is up to you ,  but the basics are here .

Most likely leaning on towards the Hersey IVs as the owners want that wood veneers finish - the low cost amp suggestion will hopefully make room for another pair of Herseys. 

Thanks!

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5 hours ago, Peter P. said:

You've got a restaurant, not a nightclub! You've got waaay too much high end audio gear for this application, and your patrons aren't going to care nor notice.

 

They just want good background music that is not so loud that it competes with their conversation.

 

You need in-wall or ceiling mounted speakers spaced properly so the sound level is EVEN throughout the listening area. The speakers should be transformer coupled to a 25 or 70V PA amp so you can run a lot of speakers on one amp, with small gauge wiring. There's no reason why you couldn't still use Klipsch in-wall or ceiling mounted speakers with outboard transformers that have separate volume controls.

 

You need to talk to a sound installation company, or if you want to do it yourself, check out  Bogen's System Design Guide.

 

P.S. I am not affiliated with Bogen; I just happen to work on in-house PA systems for certain public buildings.

 

 

I'd disagree you'd be surprised by the number of new restaurants now popping up with sophisticated high end audio gear running at pleasant listening levels like Public Records NYC.

I like the outboard transformer idea with separate volume controls - going to dive into the guide you shared. Thanks!
 

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3 hours ago, jimjimbo said:

Hello,  welcome to the forum.

 

FYI I have direct experience with each of the below.  Certainly agree with Travis above to contact the Pro division.

 

And........You should realize that there is at least a 12 month wait for Decware.

 

Yes they do and work very well.

 

BLUESOUND NODE are excellent.

Yeah I noticed on the real-time lead time they share - will might have to opt for a single network/DSP amplifier option versus a SET setup to keep things more budget friendly or something readily available like the Reisong A10.


Will definitely reach out to the Pro division, thanks for the suggestion & reassurance. 

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12 hours ago, Bob de Builder said:

Most likely leaning on towards the Hersey IVs as the owners want that wood veneers finish - the low cost amp suggestion will hopefully make room for another pair of Herseys. 

Thanks!

 I am not sure whether you can buy the  KPT 250 on a special order with veneer , if you can , why not .

 

 the KPT 250 is plywood   versus MDF   ,  the KPT-250 is 250W  versus 100W  , bass is more prominent  .

 

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  • Klipsch Employees

Ok guys...I have this at PSD@klipsch.com.   We are working on it for him. There are a number of locations wanting to do something like this. A distributed audio system would work better, but most don't care...they just what the COOL LOOK, not great coverage and sound. 

This service at klipsch is FREE. 

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2 minutes ago, Trey Cannon said:

Ok guys...I have this at PSD@klipsch.com.   We are working on it for him. There are a number of locations wanting to do something like this. A distributed audio system would work better, but most don't care...they just what the COOL LOOK, not great coverage and sound. 

This service at klipsch is FREE. 

Cool...I would need a passport and shots. Thanks!

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I can understand the “cool” retro look of a tube amplifier but doesn’t seem to make sense in a commercial application. You want the system to work 100% of the time in your restaurant with little or no maintenance involved, plug and play if you will. You don’t always have this with a tube amplifier particularly one that will be required to operate for hours on end. Food for thought - 

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