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Removing crossovers Chorus I ?


SonicSeeker
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9 minutes ago, 001 said:

the "authorized" thing, some want an upgrade from the stock sound or to use an alternative thats priced better.  one of my questions was comparing jem to other same type PE caps... why are jem so much more expensive (ive seen $40-60 for a pair of fortes that are 4 film caps & 2 lytics),  all other PE caps are less than $1ea & are likely the same quality, possibly better.  ive asked for some basic details on that or comparison to other PE caps,  but i understand klipsch probably isnt going to comment on that one.     

 

Just because they are authorized doesn't mean they are any better than other Polyester capacitors. The only valid arguments I have been interested in are metalized polyester vs foil. The foil caps are not self healing and all the research I've done has led to when new there isn't going to be a sound difference between the two, if the metalized types have self healed then they also have lost surface area from creating the "holes", this means the value in capacitance will drop and ESR increase. But in retrospect if the self healing types healed then it's logical to say the foil cap would have just failed short. Metalized types can be viewed as needed to be tested or just replaced every 1/4 century possibly. 

 

There really can't be a difference in sound because the difference in sound comes from the dielectric properties, using the same dielectric will yield the same sound. Some dielectrics are very non-linear, like Ceramic. One can place their scope in x-y mode, sample the voltage and integrate the current and you'll get a slight curve on your scope, the more linear the dielectric the straighter the line. So capacitor dielectric linearity can be really the only thing I can think of that people an hear between capacitor types.

 

Paper capacitors are actually very linear, the only capacitor I liked better than polyester in a Klipsch crossover is a paper type. I have the original polyester caps in my La Scala's and some new polyesters in my Heresy's. I'll be changing the La Scala's soon and not sure which direction to go, stay original or go paper? I'll probably end up selling my La Scala's because the older I get the harder they are to move around and the room they are in currently is only temporary per order of the "boss". This has me leaning towards polyester and then in the future swap my Heresy caps to paper types.

 

When we moved and downsized the home my office/audio room is much smaller and the La Scala's just lost a lot of their magic. They do much better in a large room. I switched to Heresy's in my office and wow they just fit perfect, much better imaging and overall balanced sound. So it looks like I'm living with my Heresy's for a long time so I plan to swap to paper and see if things improve further. It will be extremely subtle of course and a possibility of not even an improvement but I won't know until I try it and I can always swap back if I don't like it.

 

Some things to consider. For the capacitor to have an effect it needs to have the signal across it's terminals. This means it needs to be of high impedance; i.e. near the crossover frequencies where they start to act as filters. For the tweeters in an AA 2uF is about 13 ohms at 6kHz, this impedance will drop as frequency rises and the effect the dielectric has diminishes. Mind you the maximum current for the K77 is going to be 1/2 an amp, so you may end up with maximum of 6.5v across these capacitors at 6kHz. In reality it's going to be much much lower currents so maybe 200mV across them. When I was testing capacitors to look for non-linear behavior I was pushing near 100v across the capacitor to see it.

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41 minutes ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

Klipsch making those parts available is a fairly recent thing.

actually  , JEM /klipsch is going on 2 years ,  

Chief bonehead

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  On 12/29/2020 at 11:51 AM, jvs1670 said:

 

Quote from JEM Performance above...is this basically taking a shot at the offerings from Crites or ALK.  If Roy is giving his endorsement of JEM and they are doing it differently than the other guys can are we to believe any product other than theirs is subpar?

It’s pretty simple and it’s not very complicated.  It’s just not “Roy” endorsing JEM, it Klipsch.  And for the umpteen time, crites and alk or anyone else and the products they sell, are not Klipsch approved. 
 

Most people who modify a part on their network have no idea how it might affect the overall voltage transfer, which affects the spectral balance of the speaker. But it’s your speaker....do what you want. If you want the original intent, then replace with original specified parts. 

 

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11 minutes ago, captainbeefheart said:

There really can't be a difference in sound because the difference in sound comes from the dielectric properties, using the same dielectric will yield the same sound.

 

I've done that test completely blind and pass it every time. If there is no difference, I wouldn't be able to pick out a PPT Theta build every. single. time. 

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I could pick them out from Sonicaps and Dayton Audio in an AA build. Well, 20 years ago I could.

 

Also the Hovlands. True films have a smoother top end with no "sizzle".  

 

You get the same with PIO, without the forward presentation.

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1 minute ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

I could pick them out from Sonicaps and Dayton Audio in an AA build. Well, 20 years ago I could. 

 

Impressive!!

 

Are Sonicaps also foil types?

 

It would be prudent of me to also factor in the parasitic properties of each physical capacitor. Clear and easy example would be series inductance, it's part of the summation into ESR and it's certainly possible to have more losses at high frequencies given different constructions and the exact same dielectric. That one property will also change the resonant frequency location.

 

These factors are true for any capacitor, I was strictly talking about the sound difference between just the different dielectrics but of course you are correct in that there are many variables of a capacitor that in an application will behave differently.

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Sonicap is also metalized, and now way too expensive for serious consideration when you can get the Theta for less!

 

Sometimes you pick up on something, and once you do, you can't unhear it - so it becomes relatively easy to pick out the the thing that doesn't have it.  

 

At 63, it would be interesting to repeat the experiment. I might be like my wife now, who can barely hear the differences between loudspeakers, lol. 

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On 8/21/2022 at 2:52 PM, SonicSeeker said:

The speakers sounded good before I changed the caps, maybe a little tizzy and thin if I am looking for something perceived to comment on.

They did not sound veiled to me. they also did not sound as good as I remembered my original Chorus sounding years ago.

I figured different room, amplifier, older ears etc..

Short answer they needed new caps.

They sound full crisp fast and tight and the bass is hitting me in the chest, they sound like I remember them now.

Love it.

 

How do they sound now after a week of listening every day a couple of hours? If not please disregard.

Not opening a fresh can of worms Dean, others...just playing into my bias.

Thanks!

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1 minute ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

Sonicap is also metalized, and now way too expensive for serious consideration when you can get the Theta for less!

 

Sometimes you pick up on something, and once you do, you can't unhear it - so it becomes relatively easy to pick out the the thing that doesn't have it.  

 

At 63, it would be interesting to repeat the experiment. I might be like my wife now, who can barely hear the differences between loudspeakers, lol. 

 

I'm in full agreement about hearing and our age, as long as it's low levels my hearing is still fairly good but I think I just care less about chasing the dragon. I'm happy if it sounds good and that's good enough. I just like to fiddle with electronics and get my geek on.

 

I suspect it's the physical construction properties causing the sonic difference between metalized and foil. They are physically much different and I'm almost certain the foil will have higher series inductance since the metalized achieves greater capacitance given the same amount of film due to greater surface area coverage and getting the plates much closer together. Type of leads factors in also etc...   The parasitic properties is what can drive you bonkers when comparing capacitor types. I usually draw out an equivalent model of a capacitor and all it's properties and then fill them in as I measure each property. I may still have some old papers with measurements but they won't be for capacitors you guys are using, they would be for capacitors of long ago. Mostly the change between paper and film and the hybrid "di-films" was when I was very interested in this stuff. Then progressing and getting Tantalum or other polymer types to attain a reference book where if I needed a certain property for a given application I can quickly flip through the book and find what I needed. The datasheets from the companies just were not enough information sometimes to make a thorough model of the circuit.

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24 minutes ago, billybob said:

How do they sound now after a week of listening every day a couple of hours? If not please disregard.

Not opening a fresh can of worms Dean, others...just playing into my bias.

Thanks!

Still very good.

My impression is that they sound to me to be clearer, more spacious and easier to listen to when I turn them up a little.

Very detailed.

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1 hour ago, captainbeefheart said:

So are you saying the Theta caps sound different than all other polypropylene caps and you can pick them from a blind test against all other polypropylene capacitors, including other foil PP types?

Yes they do.

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1 hour ago, Crankysoldermeister said:

 

Crites, me and Al have been building for almost 20 years.

 

And again, people who mod know the mods aren't "Klipsch approved", and they don't care.

Yep.

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20 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:

Yes they do.

 

Well the comparison was apple to apple, but Mcintosh to Gala.

 

Foil and metalized can use the same dielectric and will have the same dielectric properties. I'm in agreement and can see a difference electrically due to construction of them. You'll achieve much more plate to plate surface area with metalized making probably the dielectric properties more pronounced with foil types along with having different parasitic properties on top of that.

 

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1 hour ago, captainbeefheart said:

but I think I just care less about chasing the dragon. I'm happy if it sounds good and that's good enough. I just like to fiddle with electronics and get my geek on.


Ha ha, relatable. I build for the therapy I get from it. Now, I do keep a matrix in my head of what might work best for what a person is after.

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JEM  sell the klipsch capacitors line of products , for the Klipsch speaker owners who want to use Genuine klipsch Parts to rebuild their crossovers ,   and these owners  really care to buy a  "Klipsch approved" product  , 

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