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The Internet is Dying - Is It Worth Saving?


RealMarkDeneen
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6 hours ago, RealMarkDeneen said:

How do we gain control over humanity and Nature? They won the Nature part, and what is left is the human part. 

Who is "we?" Us, individually? I used to think it was effective communication between Human Beings stressing the Golden Rule. Kinda like the opening of John's Gospel with "the Word" being actual communication.

6 hours ago, RealMarkDeneen said:

Slavery, the Internet, all the -isms you can name, the law, religions, NGOs, and governments are all in the same category of "organizational innovations." They are all systems attempting to control human behavior at scale. That's the entire exercise of "civilization" -

Well...Unless you believe in God (and there being an actual supreme deity) I don't see a solution but still think the focus on the Golden Rule (Treat others like you want to be treated) is the only solution and gotta admit it ain't likely to happen with all of the obstacles. {Note: I don't say this to be religious but an overall goal for humanity. All religions or nonreligious folks could benefit from this sentiment, imo}

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14 hours ago, RealMarkDeneen said:

The world had genius long before the Internet.  I don't buy the argument that in general people are getting smarter because of the Internet.

They are, whether you buy it or not.

https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2019/10/28/4-the-internet-will-continue-to-make-life-better/

 

In the legal profession, alone, the Internet has enabled far greater efficiency and access to knowledge.  Non lawyers can Google legal topics and become educated in legal matters in an instant.  Professionals have legal research and practice management tools that allow them to provide value 10 times faster and at 1/10 the cost.  This has leveled the playing field between sole practitioners and big law firms.  The latter no longer have massive advantages due to combining resources of 10's and 100's of lawyers to achieve economies of scale. 

 

Basically, the Internet has "democratized" the legal profession and has eroded monopolistic access to knowledge and productivity.  In many cases, it has altogether obviated the need to hire attorneys in the first place.  It's not perfect, but the imperfections result from misuse and other human frailties.

 

How many of your past customers have benefited by your ability to provide them with cheap and fast technical support over the Internet?  Can't you remember the days when people had to hurry through long distance phone calls due to the cost, alone?  These inefficiencies were impediments to progress.  The Internet prevents the need for them to box up and return products for repair and instead, allows you to quickly educate them and allow them a meaningful opportunity to solve their problems incredibly more easily.

 

"Multitasking" was hardly a concept in the pre-internet era.  I'm not going to bother to argue the benefits of multitasking.

 

Sure, you can find a million things to complain about.  That life.  Big deal!  To extend the reasoning of your quote, I will reply, "The world had idiots long before the Internet, too. Nowadays, we have a lot more geniuses."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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@Zen Traveler

 

"How do we gain control over humanity and Nature?"

 

 The "we" in that rhetorical question is referring to those who drive history- the kings, pharaohs, generals, popes, presidents, chiefs, and assorted madmen that drive the narrative. The "1 in 10,000,000" humans with that specific kind of DNA to move mountains.

 

 Those who built pyramids, cities, and empires by harnessing the common man. Those who waged wars of unspeakable gruesome death and destruction of the common man. Those who enslaved, exploited, and reduced the common man to mere " human energy resource." Those who turned the Garden of Eden into the Love Canal for a few more shiny beads. Those who wantonly destroyed much of the Animal Kingdom for amusement, trophies, and an outlet for their cruelty. 
 

THAT "we" is who i reference as seeking control over man and Nature for the last 15,000 years we call civilization. We are living out their nasty brutal experiment. It is a failure by any measure important to humanity's dignity, and destiny. But, it has to burn itself out, run its full course to oblivion before rebirth, or maybe it's better to say "reboot," of humanity can take place.  That hope for rebirth is the reason religion was invented.

 

 

 

 

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49 minutes ago, RealMarkDeneen said:

Those who waged wars of unspeakable gruesome death and destruction of the common man. Those who enslaved, exploited, and reduced the common man to mere " human energy resource." Those who turned the Garden of Eden into the Love Canal for a few more shiny beads. Those who wantonly destroyed much of the Animal Kingdom for amusement, trophies, and an outlet for their cruelty. 

Those who cured Polio.  Those who ended child labor.  Those who developed oversight of the workplace to promote employee safety.  Those who ended the Holocaust.  

 

Is the world through your eyes really as dark as you portray?

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the internet aint dying ,and if it was , we'd  be in another world .........cell phones -WIFI   would not work ,  cash rather than credit cards ,  TV Would be the only source of information , cable TV  would have 10 channels , forget facebook ,   emails ,or  Buses -Metro systems -Airplanes- trains  running on time , Elections ballots would be counted by hand , no more satellites in space , way  less pollution  , 0$ cell phone  internet  monthly plans to pay  , kids would play outside rather than staying hours  on computers , and 0 computer viruses /updates-snapchat - instagram ,-zoom  - facetime -webinars- spam - scams , and no  Ebay or Amazon ......... :rolleyes:

 

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2 hours ago, RealMarkDeneen said:

The "we" in that rhetorical question is referring to those who drive history- the kings, pharaohs, generals, popes, presidents, chiefs, and assorted madmen that drive the narrative. The "1 in 10,000,000" humans with that specific kind of DNA to move mountains.

Several years ago you made a comment when I mentioned we could actually put our mind in that of the POTUSA and your reply was none of us could because we didn't have what they had (I assumed good and bad). I disagreed and feel "DNA" has nothing to do with it unless you're referencing specific dynasties. {Note: I don't think everyone has an equal chance at "greatness," but...}

1 hour ago, Jeff Matthews said:

Those who cured Polio.  Those who ended child labor.  Those who developed oversight of the workplace to promote employee safety.  Those who ended the Holocaust.  

I agree with Jeff on this point. The internet is a tool that has made me more knowledgeable and productive (along with tremendous entertainment value). No, I'm still not as great as I wanna be but I appreciate my quality of life and recognize the "evils" of the internet and feel/hope The majority of us help curb the negatives that you see and made me aware of. Again, I do look towards government and the masses to initiate change where it needs to be to keep the internet a positive force.

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It is probably hard to see through all the busses, airplanes, cars, skyscrapers, yachts and Lambos - but for 2-1/2 million years human lived quite successfully without all that. 99% of our very successful history is pre-civilization.

 

I'm thinking now of guppies in a home aquarium. They wonder: "How could we have lived without this bubbling pirate chest, this cute little castle with nifty holes in it, and these groovy plastic plants?" They are captured by a force they will never live to understand. They are enslaved to the whims of Little Jimmy Smith, and their destiny is sealed. But hey! They're alive right? And Jimmy dumps food in every day so why fret little guppy?

 

Our fishbowl looks groovy too! And "Little Jimmy Dean" dumps food in our bowl too. And we have nice toys to play around with too! And thinking back to ancestors in the Garden of Eden, that's pointless too! Who the heck cares about freedom, the human spirit, peace, Nature, right and wrong, our fellows in the animal kingdom, our spiritual journey in the Universe? We've got Nintendo man! <---Metaphor for a bubbling pirate chest.

 

We are born INTO a world we didn't make. Others made it to suit their objectives just like Little Jimmy built his aquarium to his standards, for his goals and purposes. Humans have the will to survive and "common humans" (the standard of the species) accepts the idea of "circumstance" and swims through the castle, past the plastic plants and around the pirate chest because that is the circumstance they are in now. They can't jump out and go find a river - Jimmy made sure of that. And we can't jump out and find a mountain - just ask Vicky Weaver about that. But, that doesn't mean we should remain unaware, fast asleep, and unconscious. And it doesn't mean we should commit suicide the way captive killer whales in tanks are doing.

 

The pure genious of the gurus Jesus, Lao Tzu, Gautama Siddhartha, and others, who all made the same discovery, keep the lights on for humanity. With different words from different cultures they all say the same thing: The Kingdom of Heaven awaits our discovery - and it's not behind the wheel of a yellow Lambo. It WAS here on Earth until all the Little Jimmys of the world tried to bottle it up for their purposes. Like humanity needed pyramids? We needed a thousand wars? We needed atomic bombs? We needed to kill all the whales for some lamp oil? We needed to pollute the blood of every man, woman and child in America so some chemical madman could make Teflon pans? We needed to fill the oceans with plastic debris so Mom could put the leftover peas in a little plastic jar? This utter immoral NONSENSE of civilization is peddled to common humanity as "progress". All any  person has to do is open their eyes a little in 2022 to see how utterly SICK humanity has become by eating a bowl of "progress" every day for 15,000 years. The mythological accounts of the Garden of Eden have longevity for a reason.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Jeff Matthews said:

Is the world through your eyes really as dark as you portray?

 

Has humanity been a good steward of Nature?

Has humanity been generous, loving, and compassionate to all others?

Has humanity shared the Earth's bounty with the rest of the living species?

Is humanity growing in freedom, dignity, wisdom, self-expression and righteousness?

 

Everyone has their own answers - of course - and that is the foundation of their worldview. I have my answers, you have yours. it's not very complicated.

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

The internet is a tool that has made me more knowledgeable and productive (along with tremendous entertainment value).

 

I'm not criticising the use of the Internet. Sure, it can be used to benefit people, just like hammers and wrenches can! That's not any part of my position about the Internet. As I have said repeatedly, we "are born into circumstances" and we do the best we can with those circumstances. I AM NOT SAYING THAT USING THE INTERNET IS BAD.  I am saying that the creators have very bad intentions and purposes. Where Average Joe believes the Internet is his tool, the creators of the Internet see Average Joe as THEIR TOOL! And that's what the Internet is....it's a system of harnessing human behavior for the benefit of some "kings." And in the end, when the trap goes "SNAP!" the mouse finally sees that he is dead, and the cheese is hanging out his mouth.

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, RealMarkDeneen said:

I am saying that the creators have very bad intentions and purposes. Where Average Joe believes the Internet is his tool, the creators of the Internet see Average Joe as THEIR TOOL! And that's what the Internet is....

Maybe so, but here is the part of my quote you left out:

1 hour ago, Zen Traveler said:

I recognize the "evils" of the internet and feel/hope The majority of us help curb the negatives that you see and made me aware of. Again, I do look towards government and the masses to initiate change where it needs to be to keep the internet a positive force.

And I agree with some of your premise, but:

25 minutes ago, RealMarkDeneen said:

it's a system of harnessing human behavior for the benefit of some "kings." And in the end, when the trap goes "SNAP!" the mouse finally sees that he is dead, and the cheese is hanging out his mouth.

I contend it's more of a symbiotic relationship and your end game above is more hyperbole than actually what's going to transpire, imo...Anyway, good conversation but I don't have anything else to add that wouldn't mirror what I've already posted.

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On 9/26/2022 at 11:24 AM, RealMarkDeneen said:

Is the Internet worth saving or should it just die off like what is happening to broadcast TV?

If this is the ultimate question, I think it's worth saving and we all should do our part to make it better and be aware of what Mark's worried about. After all, we are not guppies! 🤓

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3 hours ago, OO1 said:

the internet aint dying ,and if it was , we'd  be in another world .........cell phones or wifi  would not work , you would have to use cash rather than credit cards , , your tv Would be the only source of information , cable TV  would be   10 channels , forget facebook , forget emails , forget ,Buses , Metro systems ,  Airplanes trains  running on time , Elections ballots would be counted by hand , no more satellites crowding space , way  less pollution on the planet  , no more cell phone service or internet  monthly plans to pay  , kids would play outside rather than staying hours  on computers , no more computer viruses and updates , and snapchat , instagram , zoom  , facetime , or webinars and spam , scams , no more Ebay or Amazon ...........:rolleyes:

 

 

I could be wrong - - I don't know you very well - - but that sounds to me like you might have grown up in the pre-Internet age, and are not thrilled with the current state of affairs.

 

Or, you meant it as sarcasm, and love your smartphone and debit card, and can't imagine being without them.

 

Either way, nice comment.

 

 

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The internet is just a transport vehicle for data. There is good data and bad data. There is a lot of good stuff out there, but it has also empowered those who believe that their uninformed opinions stand on equal ground with facts. You can spend a half day wading through the BS to find the truth of a thing. I find it exhausting.

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24 minutes ago, deang said:

The internet is just a transport vehicle for data. There is good data and bad data.

 

The "transportation of data model" doesn't cover the purposes that currently drive billions in capital investment in the Internet. The market cap of just Facebook and Google is $1.5 Trillion. They didn't grow like that by just transporting data. Maybe some ISPs think that way, but that's hardly "The Internet."  Verizon, Comcast, AT&T, COX  - they move data.

 

Google and Facebook use the Internet to run algorithms that modify billions of human behaviors that will drive incremental advertising and consumption in the consumer sector of the economy - which is 70% of the US economy. In simpler terms, they have "harnessed the minds of their users to pull a very heavy wagon load of consumption." And they skim their massive income from the velocity and breadth of that super-charged consumption. 

 

 

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True.

 

So, you answered your own question maybe. With those things in mind, the internet is certainly not dying.

 

It's still just data though, being manipulated for financial gain. Is this really new?

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1 hour ago, deang said:

Is this really new?

 

Directly manipulating billiions of individual human minds ('specially kids!) 24 hours a day? Yeah, that's a pretty new effect on mankind. 

 

To aggregate, stimulate, normalize, and then expand unhealty behaviors and ideations in the population is probably not a long term benefit to society. We'll see soon enough. OTOH, can't you see it already? Just askin'

 

I'm sure most parents believe that the Information Superhighway is perfectly normal, safe, useful for doing homework and so on. I'm sure they have no concern that their 10 year old daughter is following a dozen anorexia groomers on social media and devouring their advice instead of food, because the other girls are text-bullying her about being too fat. Oh well, kids always got bullied, right?

 

Kids don't belong behind screens all day and all night too. Society doesn't give a shite. It keeps them off our backs, I suppose. Keeps them from tossing a baseball through Mr. Wilson's window. Let 'em rot their eyes out watching soft-core porn 18-hours a day on that cute little program, TikTok, or YouTibe Shorts, or Instagroan. Yeah, that will make better kids! Let them sit and drool over thousands of "unboxing toys" videos. That's healthy.

 

Of course, I'm being  sarcastic. I can't actually speak the horrors this is bringing to society because it's not allowed. But goodness gracious, look around. And then "get the heck off my lawn!" 🥶

 

Nice talkin' with you Deano! Been a while. Hope you and the family are doing well in Dayton. Funny as it may be, I've been having "Ohio" on my list of places we might move for our final years. Not sure we have enough water where we are, and the Rust Belt is a constant featured place in those "10-best places to avoid the effects of climate change" lists.

Cheers!

 

 

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We all   get what we want from the internet ,good or bad , its a free country. Nobody is forcing anything on anyone , it’s always been the responsibility of the user to search out the truth , and to use the internet responsibly .Human nature hasn’t  changed because of the internet ,it’s  just a different tool that we use , a tool that can be used for good or bad,   the bad usually  centering  around money ,sex  and power ,its what makes the world go around ,and  these evils have been with us since the beginning of time and still with us today  .Human civilization has evolved over thousands of years, and like it or not this is where we are today  , good and bad .  We elect our leaders, we deserve the outcome of our choices.

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