Cornwall I restoration

[ronajon]

Lets all just leave the capacitor discussions behind us, at least in my thread.

I've showed measurements, asked for and got the advice i was looking for.

 

For now i'm leaving my caps where they are, and who knows perhaps in the future i'll replace them.

thank you @Deang @henry4841 @OO1 for your opinions and insights, these were very instructive!

 

Don't worry though, i have lots of other questions at hand, so time enough to discuss other specifics of these magnificent speakers 😇

 

next up, veneering!

[KT88]

At the risk of sounding sentimental, I would like to say something about this. I have read some of your posts, @henry4841. About tube amps etc. I also read between the lines of your passion for creating and constructing tube amps that you must be a really fine chap. Even if it wasn't a personal encounter. You are, in my view, a very reflective person who has found meaning and significance in life. Of course we all have our weaknesses, one is a bit narcissistic, the second suspicious, the third anxious, the fourth just having a bad day and the fifth living in grief over a loss. and so it goes on. I am absolutely not free of such weaknesses or fates. What I would like to say is that we are all here, in the Klipsch Forum, because it is a place we all go to make our lives a little more joyful and enriching. We share a passion for music and music reproduction based on Klipsch loudspeakers. That's a nice positive common denominator. I didn't mean to be too harsh with you, sorry. I am also referring to myself. We should not burden the beauty of this forum with the things we want to balance in this place. I'm not good at that sort of thing to discribe, what I actually mean is, we all here are a community or a part of it.

[Peter P.]

All this brawling about capacitors-I can't wait to read all the hullaballoo when it comes

to ronajon repairing the cabinets! 😀

[Blvdre]

3 hours ago, henry4841 said:

 If the management at Klipsch have no problem with private vendors on this forum telling members that after 10, 15 years their speakers will be in need of repairs I have no right to question their judgement. They know their speakers better than I do. 

 

Then you have Nelson Pass of Passlabs on another forum recently posting that he had a 40 year old amplifier he built in his lab and ALL the capacitors, this includes the electrolytic caps, testing within specifications and working correctly and the capacitors not being replaced. 

 

Why the difference? Quality of the components used?  I have always considered my 40+ LaScala's as a high end quality audio product in the same playing field as companies like Passlabs. 

Who exactly are these private vendors? Both Deang and JEM Performance are approved Klipsch service providers. Deang offered good advice regarding ESR testing of capacitors, and was providing sound direction for the OP. I don't see anything to criticize here, except that fewer and fewer truly knowledgeable people are left on this forum.

[ronajon]

guys (and girls? ), like i said in my previous post, please drop the subject of the caps. For now i'm good. i like the sound of my speakers at this point, and perhaps in the future i'll decide to change them, and perhaps i don't

 

 

[Travis In Austin]

Per @ronajon request up above, his second  plea in this thread, I have cleaned this up.

 

If he wants more information about it me can request (or pm) at appropriate time. 
 

@ronajon I can tell you from personal experience this:

 

1. If you make a change and do a sighted listening test,  you will almost always hear a change, and typically, we are wired in such a way that the change will be a “noticeable improvement.” The engineering science behind that is beyond question. PWK has also written about this “placebo effect.. Our brains tell the s there is a change in sound, even if there isn’t, it’s what keeps snake oil alive Audio.

 

2. If you have make a change, and do a blind listening test (you will help the of a friend), then you have a more better chance of determining whether the change made a difference, and whether you prefer it. 
 

3. For crossover networks, I have found that 30+ years caps, in double blind testing (one updated XO vs. original) always made a difference in sound, and always a perceived improvement. 
 

4. For 15-25 year old caps, I listened to two different sets, blind, one there was no difference, the other there was a slight difference.

 

5. For 15, 12 and 8 year old caps, blind, 4 people, no difference, or if they noticed a difference on repeated test, they were choosing at no better than chance, 50-50. 
 

That’s all I can tell you, not the most scientific, but that’s the truth. 
 

I have seen Dean, repeatedly, tell people in this Forum, and others, depending on the type of caps, XO, etc. they don’t need new caps. 
 

If you do decide to update your caps, I highly recommend doing one first, and some serious A/B. I’m f possible, hooked up by a friend so you don’t know which has original, and the other has updated. 

[ronajon]

some update from the last days.

i started to prepare one cabinet for veneering. smoothening cracks and corners, filling holes and painting parts that are not going to be veneered.

 

 

 

after the whole capacitor discussing, it had another good look at mine (visual, not measuring) and found that both 2 and 4uF seem not that good as i thought they were. especially the 2uF has some bulging in the can.

Together with the comments from previous prosts i have finally descided to replace them. First doing just one speaker so i can do some A/B testing

 

 

 

[Invidiosulus]

Nice prep work for the veneer.

 

The oil cans in my Type E Heresy 1 networks looked like that when I replaced them with some modern caps.

The difference was noticeable and commented on by my wife who had no idea that I had done anything to the speakers.

[ronajon]

first speaker is ready.

Unfortunately its hard here (the Netherlands) to acquire the correct Klipsch capacitors. I'm in contact with @JEM Performance about the price for shipping a kit over here.  Meanwhile for testing purposes i tried some other caps, Monacor MKT. 1+1 uF and 3+1 uF. Since the Aerovox seem to be done, at least changing should do no harm to my opinion.

 

after prepping the speakers, i got to the veneering of it. Because i've build a birch plinth for my modified Lenco L75, i thought it would be nice looking to also have the speakers in the same veneer.

 

The front panel is painted matte black, same with the back panel, and the cabinet is treated with 5 layers of Rustin Danish oil. I also made risers, panted the same black as the front and back panel.

 

About the sound, to me it sounds that the speaker now is more alive, highs get a little crispier and the bass is fuller.

Not sure if this is due to the risers or the other capacitors, but at least there is a noticable difference.

 

Next up, the other speaker 😀

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Peter P.]

All I can say is wow; you did a nice job. Congratulations!

[KT88]

They look (still one of them) very beautiful, what a friendly colour of the new veneer! Super fit with the TT.

[ronajon]

i have a Umik microphone for some time and never used it before, so this i a good time to put it to use and do some measurements.

 

I have performed a SPL measurement on both speakers, one with the original Aerovox and one with the caps for testing purposes.

 

Green: left speaker with Aerovox caps

Red: right speaker with Monacor caps

 

in a couple of weeks i'll do another test when the Monacor caps have had some playing time.

 

i'm no sound engineer, so not sure what to think of these graphs. If anyone has suggestions for other tests, let me know

 

[billybob]

Interesting graph. Yes, another couple of weeks with several hours will tell you more.

Nice job...

[KT88]

Did you set up and measure the two speakers in the same place? Or once on axis in front of the left speaker location and then on axis in front of the right speaker location? If you had two different locations in the room for the respective speakers, it would explain a few dips in the new capacitor, e.g. at 180 Hz and at 1.2 KHz. Otherwise, there are areas of amazing consistency, e.g. between 1.5 and 4 KHz...where the ear is most sensitive. And the bass is significantly deeper with the new caps, but this may also be due to the placement in the room in the first place.
However, this measurement also shows that emotional differences in sound cannot necessarily be determined with a frequency response.
One last point, your K77s are comparatively very high in HF and strong. Personally, I wouldn't trade the dispersion characteristics of the K77M for the fact that another tweeter could go a little higher, but doesn't produce this important homogeneity together with the mid horn like the K77 can.

[ronajon]

2 hours ago, KT88 said:

Did you set up and measure the two speakers in the same place? Or once on axis in front of the left speaker location and then on axis in front of the right speaker location? If you had two different locations in the room for the respective speakers, it would explain a few dips in the new capacitor, e.g. at 180 Hz and at 1.2 KHz. Otherwise, there are areas of amazing consistency, e.g. between 1.5 and 4 KHz...where the ear is most sensitive. And the bass is significantly deeper with the new caps, but this may also be due to the placement in the room in the first place.
However, this measurement also shows that emotional differences in sound cannot necessarily be determined with a frequency response.

 

One last point, your K77s are comparatively very high in HF and strong. Personally, I wouldn't trade the dispersion characteristics of the K77M for the fact that another tweeter could go a little higher, but doesn't produce this important homogeneity together with the mid horn like the K77 can.

 

i did the measurements with the speakers separated (as in the photo a couple of posts above). The centers of the speakers are 2.3 mtr apart from each other. I put the Umik 1 mic on a small stool, 1 mtr distance from the speaker and did the measurements for every single speaker.

 

The bass could also be affected to the riser i put under the speaker with the new caps. I lifts the whole speaker 5cm up.

 

I mainly did the measurements to see if there will be differences between de new caps vs the Aerovox onces.

 

When i have veneered and recapped the speaker that still holds the Aerovox caps, i'll do new measurements and see if there is a difference again.

 

i don't have plans to change the K77M

 

 

[OO1]

 used + 40 years old K-77 tweeters now sell for more money than new tweeters , and oddly for close to 20 years , cies like Crites and ALK  bashed the K-77  

[KT88]

3 hours ago, ronajon said:

 

i don't have plans to change the K77M

 

 

I just wanted to praise the K77M once again, just like my K77 alnico. I didn't mean to say that you don't want to keep yours.

[ronajon]

1 hour ago, KT88 said:

I just wanted to praise the K77M once again, just like my K77 alnico. I didn't mean to say that you don't want to keep yours.

 

no worries, i had no such thoughts on your comment. and i agree, the K77M are a set of very fine tweeters

[Invidiosulus]

21 hours ago, OO1 said:

 used + 40 years old K-77 tweeters now sell for more money than new tweeters , and oddly for close to 20 years , cies like Crites and ALK  bashed the K-77  

Oddly enough, some people would like to have a tweeter that doesn’t run out of gas past 15KhHz and can handle a little bit more power.

 

Plenty of stuff sells for silly amounts of money just because it is old and or rare.

 

You are deluding yourself if you think there aren’t far better modern tweeters available.

[Invidiosulus]

On 12/15/2023 at 6:22 AM, ronajon said:

i have a Umik microphone for some time and never used it before, so this i a good time to put it to use and do some measurements.

 

I have performed a SPL measurement on both speakers, one with the original Aerovox and one with the caps for testing purposes.

 

Green: left speaker with Aerovox caps

Red: right speaker with Monacor caps

 

in a couple of weeks i'll do another test when the Monacor caps have had some playing time.

 

i'm no sound engineer, so not sure what to think of these graphs. If anyone has suggestions for other tests, let me know

 

I wouldn’t trust any measured differences unless the speakers were both in the exact same position in the room.