Lascala cabinet resonance

[Shakeydeal]

8 minutes ago, billybob said:

I take this as the original LaScala model review?

Thanks!

 

Pretty sure that review is the AL5. I don't think they ever reviewed the original lascala. Sam Tellig did a write up of the LS II.

[Invidiosulus]

32 minutes ago, billybob said:

I take this as the original LaScala model review?

Thanks!

The AL5.

[Invidiosulus]

38 minutes ago, OO1 said:

 the Stereophile review is full of errors 

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-la-scala-al5-loudspeaker-measurements

 

and I quote 

 

" I found three fairly strong resonant modes on the sides of the bass bin (fig.2). The highest was at 125Hz.

Usually when I measure a loudspeaker's farfield behavior, I raise it as far as possible off the ground.

 

Fig.5 Klipsch La Scala, 

  Note that I didn't connect the woofer for this measurement, as its output was corrupted by the reflections from the floor " 

 

 

Stereophile  were taking critical measurements  of the Lascala in a not-so-perfect environment  for such measurements,  all the tests and measurements are  therefore flawed    , the Lascala cabinet should have been stabilized firmly to the surface of the floor before any measurements could be done , otherwise the results are simply not accurate or representative of the speaker's true resonance results .

 

 

 

I’m sorry that you have a problem with reading comprehension.

 

The author states that they left the AL5 on the floor because it was so heavy.

 

The measurement with the woofer disconnected was a a standard frequency response measurement and the author is acknowledging that the floor reflections were not allowing him to get an accurate picture of the response of the speaker which is why he only included the midrange and tweeter on that graph.

[OO1]

3 minutes ago, Invidiosulus said:

 The author states that they left the AL5 on the floor because it was so heavy.

 

 the fact that the AL-5 is heavy does not preclude that the testing and measurement methods are not to be compromised ,  the Author should have used a stand as a strict minimum  , or the results are flawed 

 

"  couldn't lift the La Scala off the floor onto a stand  "  now that's just too bad , either you do it right or your published results are inaccurate and worthless  ,  because had the Author used a stand , the results would have been very different .

 

[Invidiosulus]

13 minutes ago, OO1 said:

 the fact that the AL-5 is heavy does not preclude that the testing and measurement methods are not to be compromised ,  the Author should have used a stand as a strict minimum  , or the results are flawed 

 

"  couldn't lift the La Scala off the floor onto a stand  "  now that's just too bad , either you do it right or your published results are inaccurate and worthless  ,  because had the Author used a stand , the results would have been very different .

 

So you are saying that the AL5 needs a stand to not resonate?

Or are you saying that it needs a stand to have the correct frequency response?

 

What exactly do you propose would have been different if the AL5 had been on a stand.

 

I think the measurements do a good job of showing what one can expect when listening in a real room.

 

 The review and the comments with the measurements are generally favorable.

[Flevoman]

2 hours ago, Marvel said:

You mean right where his vocals come in? Really obvious... Very much there in my inexpensive Sony headphones I have at work,

Yes, exactly when he start singing. 

I have listened on my Sennheiser ear buts and on my Sonos system (2x Sonos 1 + sub), both not hifi but decent, and I can hear on both his voice is warm and deep but it it is in balans. On the lascala I can hear a loud resonance that's very unpleasant. It's almost if the speaker can't handle it and there for is creating some kind of wooden vibration. 

[KT88]

1 hour ago, Flevoman said:

Yes, exactly when he start singing. 

I have listened on my Sennheiser ear buts and on my Sonos system (2x Sonos 1 + sub), both not hifi but decent, and I can hear on both his voice is warm and deep but it it is in balans. On the lascala I can hear a loud resonance that's very unpleasant. It's almost if the speaker can't handle it and there for is creating some kind of wooden vibration. 

In my view, this Chris Isaak recording is an absolute borderline case. When he starts singing, e.g. the word "blue"...I've just listened to the recording several times through my two speakers, and my speakers are as different from each other as it's possible to be. The UGJ has much greater resolution and a simply unbelievable dynamic range, even in the current passive set-up. The word "blue", but also the entire vocal range of the song, has very strong resonances built into it, very strong indeed. I can clearly hear that these are NOT my UGJs. At first I was still in doubt, because it "could" be that the UGJs resonate in this frequency range or that it could build up in my room, because they are placed very precisely and closely in the corners without an air gap and at exactly 45 degrees. 
I then plugged the speaker cables around and listened to the same song several times through my BBC Stirling Broadcast LS3/6. These speakers are by no means comparable to the UGJ in terms of dynamics and expressiveness. That's the first reason why I was curious whether the resonances would be absolutely inaudible. The second reason is that I know of no other normal radiator speaker that is as neutral and absolutely free of any boominess as this BBC speaker, which is virtually the heir to the famous Spendor BC1 but with modern drivers. The benchmark in the development of these BBC speakers over 53 years ago was the ESL57 in terms of clarity, freedom from resonance and speech intelligibility. I have never been bothered by any resonance with the Stirling. I have it as a second speaker pair because it has such a richness of tone colour and coherence. Unlike the UGJ, I love listening to it late at night when I don't want a lot of dynamics but it's a bit like a very nice sound from a larger tube kitchen radio that I've loved for decades. We also live in a large flat but with neighbours above us. So I have UGJ times like other people have piano playing times in their flat.
Back to the SB LS3/6, they are mega neutral. And now comes Chris Isaak's song. He starts singing and ...it's booming. It booms all the time, haha, the BBC speaker doesn't do that, and neither did the Klipsch UGJ before. It's the recording!!!
My guess: a, they drowned the voice to death in reverb. The result is that the coloratura can no longer be pinpointed, but wavers in a sea of soupy jelly. b, this droning soup, which is below the frequency of the vowel sounds and below the consonantal S sounds and T sounds, has been additionally pimped and boosted with an equaliser. 
Now...it may be that this recording disaster (my personal opinion) accidentally hits a resonance in your room or even in your AL5, which would of course make it twice as bad. But frankly, I don't think so. What I do believe is that your AL5, at its best, reveals the kitsch sound of this recording technique in a completely honest way, unimpressed by the music and absolutely unsparing without any whitewashing.

 

 

[nickyboy6100]

I just listened to that song on Tidal, on fiberglass La Scala splits. All original except the tweeters are DaveA’s and the crossovers have been updated with JEM caps. I don’t hear any resonance. I will say,  I don’t think that is a very good recording unless that was the effect they were going for. Sounds like a microphone effect. Dark, muffled dreamscape. 

[Flevoman]

Very clear and plausible explanation @KT88. I also searched for a while in the recordings themselves. This resonance I sometimes hear is (perhaps logically) only present during dynamic sections.

However, since songs that pose problems on the La Scala seem to perform well on other speakers, I was unsure where to pinpoint the cause (which is why I started this topic to exclude if it's a speaker issue). Just to clarify for myself, does this song sound unpleasant to listen to due to resonance on your UJ (as I understand you also experience something similar on the UJ)?

I'm wondering if it's even more pronounced in my setup. Playing this song over the La Scala is genuinely not enjoyable to listen to.

[Flevoman]

@nickyboy6100.. 

KT88 hears resonance, on your La Scala, there's nothing audible... It's not becoming any more logical 😄

[KT88]

6 minutes ago, Flevoman said:

Very clear and plausible explanation @KT88. I also searched for a while in the recordings themselves. This resonance I sometimes hear is (perhaps logically) only present during dynamic sections.

However, since songs that pose problems on the La Scala seem to perform well on other speakers, I was unsure where to pinpoint the cause (which is why I started this topic to exclude if it's a speaker issue). Just to clarify for myself, does this song sound unpleasant to listen to due to resonance on your UJ (as I understand you also experience something similar on the UJ)?

I'm wondering if it's even more pronounced in my setup. Playing this song over the La Scala is genuinely not enjoyable to listen to.

I hear this resonance equally loud on both speakers. As nickyboy also says, it is inherent in the recording, perhaps a microphone resonance or whatever. It sounds just as negative with the SB as it does with the UGJ. In this freq. range both speakers normally don't make resonances that would come from themselves.

Your LaScala is simply honest.

 

[nickyboy6100]

13 minutes ago, KT88 said:

I hear this resonance equally loud on both speakers. As nickyboy also says, it is inherent in the recording, perhaps a microphone resonance or whatever. It sounds just as negative with the SB as it does with the UGJ. In this freq. range both speakers normally don't make resonances that would come from themselves.

Your LaScala is simply honest.

 

I agree. It’s the honesty of the La Scala. 
I guess I can hear some resonance, but it’s in the recording. Just like listening to something with steel guitar. Is it the guitar or the speaker?

I want to hear all of that. I’m not big on super polished music. I don’t want my speakers to gloss over all the little nuances that make music what it is. That is what’s so special about the La Scala’s. 

[Flevoman]

Some resonance or a very unpleasant resonance. That's a big difference. For me it is a very unpleasant resonance in this song. It is so strong that I usually skip this song. 

[nickyboy6100]

37 minutes ago, Flevoman said:

Some resonance or a very unpleasant resonance. That's a big difference. For me it is a very unpleasant resonance in this song. It is so strong that I usually skip this song. 

I know what you mean. I think some recordings are just unlistenable. 

[mikebse2a3]

As can be seen in this clip of the recording (line level sample) when he sings Big and Blue Skies you can see the range in the 100Hz - 180Hz is very active with maximum peaking ~141Hz.

 

 

 

[babadono]

4 hours ago, nickyboy6100 said:

I think lots of recordings are just unlistenable.

Fixed it fer ya.

[mikebse2a3]

@Flevoman  

 

Listening to Chris Isaak (Blue Spanish Sky) on my Headphone System (Audeze LCD2-Fazor Headpones and McIntosh MHA-100 Headphone Amplifier) you can hear as he sings Red and Blue Skies that it close to the edge of sounding resonant/reverb like but I have no problem listening to it and am able to enjoy it as reproduced. This is a very revealing system of recordings and allows me to experience nuances in a recording beyond what seems possible with loudspeakers in rooms and I use it as a reference to judge if the issues are in the recordings or room/speaker related issues.

 

 

 

 

UG Jubilee:

I also listened to the recording over my UG Jubilee system and found the resonant/reverb like sound to be somewhat more observable than with the Headphone System Experience but still I could enjoy listening to the song but again the song/recording is borderline itself of sounding to resonant/reverb like during parts of the vocal sections.

 

La Scala AL5:

When I listened to the recording over the La Scala AL5 system it was obvious that the resonant/reverb effect was increased above the UG Jubilee system I experienced and even though I could still enjoy the experience it was very very close to being over exaggerated and intolerable. The La Scala does appear to have some peaking in the 100Hz to 200Hz region so any additional exaggeration due to placement of the La Scala relative to room boundaries or room modes could easily make this recording unlistenable IMHO. 

 

I experienced very similar issues in my listening room which is almost square and proved to be very difficult to find a location for the speakers in the room and ultimately came down to movements of less than a few inches until I found the location that provided the most neutral balance for the loudspeakers. I would probably try playing this recording as I moved the La Scala relative to the room boundaries to try to find a neutral area in the room where it least excited this region centered at ~140Hz to see if you can minimize the problem your experiencing. Also it should be noted listener location should be taken into account and experimented with relative to boundaries and room modes  for this problem as well.

 

miketn

 

 

 

 

[nickyboy6100]

51 minutes ago, babadono said:

Fixed it fer ya.

Well,  you’re not lying. 

[Tom05]

I’ve been  worried about excessive Lascala vibration/ resonance all week🤷 , But tonight I’ll sleep good knowing that they were just faithfully reproducing a crappy recording . What a relief 🤓

[billybob]

1 hour ago, Tom05 said:

I’ve been  worried about excessive Lascala vibration/ resonance all week🤷 , But tonight I’ll sleep good knowing that they were just faithfully reproducing a crappy recording . What a relief 🤓

Been an interesting conversation. At least willing to pursue.