Lascala cabinet resonance

[the real Duke Spinner]

On 1/2/2024 at 2:22 PM, Invidiosulus said:

This is a basic simulation of the LS bass horn in Hornresp.

 

The K33 is in light gray and I’ve plotted the exact same horn in black but substituted the driver specs for those of the Eminence Kappa 15C.

 

as you can see, both drivers show a peak in the 150Hz region with the 15C showing less of a drop in output.

You will also note that the 15C gives up a little on the low end to the K33.

 

Even if the sidewalls aren’t resonating(much) there is still going to be that peak in the response which will really honk if given the right(wrong) source material.

This peak in the 150Hz region is well documented, and even showed up in the  response curves from the stereophile review of the AL-5.

Before anybody has a chance to try to pretend that I’m making this up, and that the stereophile measurements aren’t valid(I’m looking at you @OO1 ), I would like to remind you that Roy himself posted the following EQ settings for use with the LS bass section when using an active DSP crossover.

 

87hz, Q:3.5, +5dB
148Hz, Q:8, -7dB
380Hz, Q:5.5, +2dB

 

I think it’s hard to realize what you are missing until you have a chance to hear the LS bass without that peak.

150 hz is a problem Grew in all of Sound Recording and reproduction

I have never been motivated to study why

Thad why there is a 150hz Fader. 😀🙂😀

[Khornukopia]

Sometimes I read elsewhere that folks with uber-expensive speakers wish they could re-create the rock concert sensation at home, and I just have to smile, thinking about how the La Scala does that so well, partly due to the rising bass response and the shape of the bass horn.

[Tom05]

Some listeners are able to identify fairly accurately where anomalies exist  in a speakers fr , but for most , it will be perceived as only a small variation in  voicing .The strong suit of Lascala and Klipschorn is the wonderful unique clarity and  realism , a quality that is very rare  to find elsewhere. To display these properties most effectively  , only high quality recordings will do , common poorly produced recordings stand out as inferior because the  realism that we treasure is missing in the recording . Hi resolution recordings sound extraordinary on Lascala , so we know what they are capable of , if you hear something amiss , be suspect of the  recording as the cause of your trouble 🤓

[Flevoman]

@Tom05 

You're absolutely right about the recordings. But perhaps you missed it in my previous messages; I had the CW4 at home until recently and reconnected these speakers for three days.

As good as the CW4 is, the AL-5 is my preferred choice in terms of sound. However, on the CW4, every song that exhibited a sort of thickening on the AL-5 just sounded good. So, without diminishing the fantastic sound experience I have with the AL-5, there's sometimes a kind of thickening on a frequency that, while I've grown accustomed to it, I would like to eliminate.

[Tom05]

1 hour ago, Tom05 said:

Some listeners are able to identify fairly accurately where anomalies exist  in a speakers fr , but for most , it will be perceived as only a small variation in  voicing .

No I didn’t miss it, that’s why I said , “but for most “, you being not like most , interpret the anomaly as annoying, and I understand that 🤓

[Shakeydeal]

1 hour ago, Flevoman said:

@Tom05 

You're absolutely right about the recordings. But perhaps you missed it in my previous messages; I had the CW4 at home until recently and reconnected these speakers for three days.

As good as the CW4 is, the AL-5 is my preferred choice in terms of sound. However, on the CW4, every song that exhibited a sort of thickening on the AL-5 just sounded good. So, without diminishing the fantastic sound experience I have with the AL-5, there's sometimes a kind of thickening on a frequency that, while I've grown accustomed to it, I would like to eliminate.

Question. Did you have the CW4 and the AL5 in the exact same location? And I don’t mean near each other, but exactly. If not, you may be hearing a room node exacerbated by the position of the LaScala. If so, try the Cornwalls in that location. And make sure your location is the same every time.

[Islander]

13 hours ago, Flevoman said:

@Tom05 

You're absolutely right about the recordings. But perhaps you missed it in my previous messages; I had the CW4 at home until recently and reconnected these speakers for three days.

As good as the CW4 is, the AL-5 is my preferred choice in terms of sound. However, on the CW4, every song that exhibited a sort of thickening on the AL-5 just sounded good. So, without diminishing the fantastic sound experience I have with the AL-5, there's sometimes a kind of thickening on a frequency that, while I've grown accustomed to it, I would like to eliminate.

 

You might be able to correct that 'thickening' sensation with some judiciously applied EQ, assuming you can get an equalizer with very clean sound that won't throw a veil over the whole listening range like my 1980s equalizer did.  The Electro-Voice Dx38 24-bit audio processor that was used in the development of the UG Jubilee and the JubScala does not have this issue.

 

In the list of settings for that electronic audio processor, that replaces the crossovers in the JubScalas, Roy included a 7 dB cut at 148 Hz.  That might be worth looking into for your system.  As I've mentioned in other posts, that 148 Hz peak is not due to any kind of resonance, because the setting is the same for both the La Scala II as well as the original La Scala, which has the less stiff 3/4" plywood cabinet material.  It's a characteristic of that horn.

 

As to why PWK  would continue to build speakers with bass horns that have this characteristic, I surmised that in the compromises that are necessary in the building and voicing of any speaker, he must have decided that this perceived negative characteristic ('perceived' negative, because some owners may like a bit of upper bass boost) was outweighed by a positive somewhere else.

 

Or, PWK may have decided that, as I've seen this expression from him occasionally, "It doesn't make a dime's worth of difference."

[Flevoman]

12 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

Question. Did you have the CW4 and the AL5 in the exact same location? And I don’t mean near each other, but exactly. If not, you may be hearing a room node exacerbated by the position of the LaScala. If so, try the Cornwalls in that location. And make sure your location is the same every time.

 

Yes, when I tested the CW4, I placed it in exactly the same spot as the AL-5 with precisely the same positioning.

27 minutes ago, Islander said:

You might be able to correct that 'thickening' sensation with some judiciously applied EQ, assuming you can get an equalizer with very clean sound that won't throw a veil over the whole listening range like my 1980s equalizer did.  The Electro-Voice Dx38 24-bit audio processor that was used in the development of the UG Jubilee and the JubScala does not have this issue.

 

Thanks for this tip. And quite coincidentally, this is also going to happen. Mike gave me this tip a little earlier, and he has had positive experiences with it. Consequently, I've ordered a DSpeaker on Marktplaats, which is now on its way. I'm curious to see if this will indeed provide an improvement.

[Shakeydeal]

I use the Dspeaker Anti-mode 8033 II on my subs and it works as advertised. I wouldn’t be without it. I have no experience with their full range room correction products.

[Flevoman]

@Shakeydeal he just arrived this morning 😁

So now I have to study the manual what to do with it.

It is the DSpeaker anti-mode 2.0 dual core by the way. 

 

The device doesn't really feel as audiophile; do you notice any adverse effects in the sound due to adding this device? (considering the idea of introducing more obstacles in the audio path)

[KT88]

I suspect that you @Flevoman want to explore the fundamental difference that this DSPeaker device makes regarding the modes and the 150 Hz peak. I'm always curious what a device should NOT add, and I found it at Amir...even if it's a predecessor of your new device, the DSPeaker doesn't seem to be on par with my 16 year old Yamaha SP2060 (which I use for my UJ) when it comes to ADC and DAC quality only. Your question to Shakeydeal could therefore be legitimate.
Here is what Amir from ASR measured regarding the converter qualities (of the predecessor model of the DSPeaker).

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dspeaker-anti-mode-2-0-dual-core-room-eq-review.15624/

[Shakeydeal]

5 hours ago, Flevoman said:

@Shakeydeal he just arrived this morning 😁

So now I have to study the manual what to do with it.

It is the DSpeaker anti-mode 2.0 dual core by the way. 

 

The device doesn't really feel as audiophile; do you notice any adverse effects in the sound due to adding this device? (considering the idea of introducing more obstacles in the audio path)

 

The 8033 in my system is not in the signal path for anything but the subwoofer amp. I use the second set of outputs from my preamp to the device, then out from there to the left and right subwoofers. In your instance, I wouldn't be surprised if it adds (or takes away) something. Which is why I wouldn't use DSP in my system for anything other than low frequencies.

[mikebse2a3]

1 hour ago, KT88 said:

I suspect that you @Flevoman want to explore the fundamental difference that this DSPeaker device makes regarding the modes and the 150 Hz peak. I'm always curious what a device should NOT add, and I found it at Amir...even if it's a predecessor of your new device, the DSPeaker doesn't seem to be on par with my 16 year old Yamaha SP2060 (which I use for my UJ) when it comes to ADC and DAC quality only. Your question to Shakeydeal could therefore be legitimate.
Here is what Amir from ASR measured regarding the converter qualities (of the predecessor model of the DSPeaker).

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dspeaker-anti-mode-2-0-dual-core-room-eq-review.15624/

 

@KT88  I first used a EV DC-ONE with Roy’s PEQ’s for the La Scala and it solved the issues with the “emphasis” noted by @Flevoman in the recordings he reported about. It was a clear improvement with no negatives noted in other areas like vocals or imaging for example and was actually was an noticeable improvement in them because the “emphasis” was masking details in both vocals and imaging.

 

I also have this DSpeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core unit and decided to try it in place of the EV DC-ONE for comparison and since it has potential to do an even better compensation for a variety of issues in the real world of room issues as well.

 

Currently using the DSpeaker with my La Scala AL5 and it is working extremely well and has significantly improved the issue @Flevoman has noted with the recordings. The DSpeaker in my experience so far offers improvements even more so as described above with the EV DC-ONE and is a clear improvement over the EV DC-ONE’s simpler compensation that is available from it.

 

IMHO based on my experiences the DSpeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 Dual Core is all positive when implemented properly in my system. IMHO any audible negatives that it might have are swamped by the significant to me improvements it makes with my La Scala AL5 in my room/system.

 

miketn

 

[mikebse2a3]

6 hours ago, Flevoman said:

The device doesn't really feel as audiophile; do you notice any adverse effects in the sound due to adding this device? (considering the idea of introducing more obstacles in the audio path)

 

Please don’t let this or anything you might read interfere/influence you. 

 

Please try it with an open mind 🙂

[mikebse2a3]

 

For whatever it’s worth it seems both the Absolute Sound and Stereophile were pretty impressed back in their 2013 reviews.

 

https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/dspeaker-anti-mode-20-dualcore-digital-signal-processor/

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-57-page-2

 

Stereophile had it rated Class A of their 2013 recommended components.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/2013-recommended-components-signal-processors

 

 

I personally take all reviews with a grain of salt and ultimately if I find it interesting enough I explore it for myself and make up my own mind/experiences. 🙂

[KT88]

@mikebse2a3, thanks for the review from a real user. I only found Amir's review and he was somewhat critical, at least of his measurements. At the end of the day, the decisive factor is whether such a device helps the user in his environment, and that is very credibly the case with you.

[mikebse2a3]

 

 

This was my experiences of the DSpeaker in 2013.

 

 

[mikebse2a3]

2 hours ago, KT88 said:

@mikebse2a3, thanks for the review from a real user. I only found Amir's review and he was somewhat critical, at least of his measurements. At the end of the day, the decisive factor is whether such a device helps the user in his environment, and that is very credibly the case with you.

 

@KT88 keep in mind Amir would probably never recommend any of our “beloved” Tube Amplifiers based on their measurements.

 

Measurements are definitely important but they hardly tell the complete story at the stage we are currently living in and it all ultimately has to pass the “Listening Experience of a Human” in the real world.

 

miketn🙂 

[Flevoman]

I've experimented a bit (with Mike's help) using the DSpeaker, and while testing the room acoustics, you can clearly see the bump around 100Hz-150Hz. Whether this is partly due to the speaker or entirely the acoustics, I'm not sure, but apparently, this is what I keep hearing in songs and it bothers me.

The difference with acoustic corrections on or off is significant and impressive to me. For example, I came across this song this morning; without correction, it's unbearable for me (yes, partly due to the recording), but with room correction on, I can still hear a kind of vibration in the song, but it seems balanced now.

It's a bit conflicting for me because instinctively, I want to keep the audio signal as pure as possible. The last thing I want is to add an EQ to my system. However, I can't deny that it does what it's supposed to do very well. To test whether it detracts from the music quality, I'll have to wait until my girlfriend is back. Then, she can switch between the A/B input on the amplifier and can i determine if I can hear any difference with the DSpeaker (with correction turned off) or without. If I hear no difference, no loss of audio quality, then it's a keeper.

If I do notice a loss in quality, then I'll have to look for a more audiophile solution because attenuating this specific frequency range really benefits the music.

[Shakeydeal]

If it contributes to you enjoying music more, then it's all good. That is, after all, what we want, right?