New 2003 Khorns - two weeks later

[DTLongo]

(Folks joining this may want to review the posts since April 6 under "My 2003 Klipschorns" in the Odds and Mods Forum and a first post in the General forum.

Two weeks with my two new Khorns are up tomorrow. I think I'll keep them (grin).

I had lamented an apparent lack of low bass. Based on posters' advice I checked everything, and the speakers are phased correctly internally, and externally to the amp. The problem is probably due to the listening room, ca. 12' by 15', cathedral ceiling, with the speakers in corners along the long wall. There is a large doorway between them, so those corners extend only about 20" beyond the speakers' edge.

Anyway, to make a long story short, I find that running Klipschorns is like piloting an airplane. You don't just enter the cockpit, turn the key and step on the gas. You gotta know how to FLY the thing. Flying Khorns means that they want to play loud. Then, their presence and impact is such that everything is just THERE, including titanic bass that just seems to emerge from the house structure itself. I am not exaggerating! But if you turn them down, the bass seems to collapse on itself. These speakers are not designed for soft background listening. (continued)

[DTLongo]

(continued)

As previously mentioned, the Khorns' clarity and imaging are superlative. On familiar recordings you hear things you never heard before. There is a real sense of resin bows on strings, individual banjo and guitar strings, wind instruments' reed vibrations, air passing over flute holes, musicians' breathing, and so forth. These speakers miss nothing.

For low level listening when the Khorns' bass evaporates, I switch in a Velodyne subwoofer. I can also switch in a ten-band equalizer for source material so requiring. But cranked up (only to perhaps the 10:30 position max on my amp volume control), the Khorns are so efficient and clear and full-range that you don't need or want anything else in the circuit.

In sum, I am slowly but surely becoming delighted with these lifetime dream audio puppies. They are proving NOT to be a disappointment. /s/ Tom Longo in Ocean Pines, MD

[Deang]

Very nice.

Maybe someday when I'm old and gray I can get a pair of Cadillacs.

[J M O N]

The Khorns only need about 40" of wall from the corner. Anything beyond that is not used as part of the horn.

[NOSValves]

DTLongo,

Nice review !! I find the very same thing is true of the Lascala's the bass doesn't seem to present itself fully until the volume is raised then its like WOW !! My Scott amp has a Loudness (contuor) circuit that helps this out real well. If your amp or preamp not sure what your using doesn't have a loudness circuit try bumping the bass and treble controls up slightly you might be pleasently surprised. What is great about the Scott and most vintage tube amps is the loudness circuit is self defeating after about 50% volume so I just leave mine on.

Craig

[Johnny dB]

DTLongo,

Your lack of bass could be the fault of your receiver. Through my HK 95 solid state my '84 khorns bass is non-existent at low levels. When I hook up my Scott 299 integrated tube amp the bass is more prevalent. Could be the bass mod Craig did. I too, have a less than optimum room for them; but the crispness of the mids and highs makes it all alright. When I feel I need a bass blast I turn on my 1000W JBL 18" subwoofer powered by an Adcom GFA555 bridged mono. Having a center ch preout on that old Scott is awesome.

[garymd]

I spend a week every summer in Ocean Pines. If you decide you want to show off your new khorns to a fellow forum member who will be in your neighbohood Aug 16-23, it would be greatly appreciated. It is also a dream of mine to someday own a pair but I think I'll have to wait for my 15 yr old to finish college.

[middlecreekguy]

----------------

On 4/19/2003 7:18:41 PM DeanG wrote:

Very nice.

Maybe someday when I'm old and gray I can get a pair of Cadillacs.

----------------

God Dean, who said he was old and gray. #`s mean nothing. I`m just giving you a little crap.

[j-malotky]

I too find it odd that you say you loose bass at lower listening levils.

My Khorns sound great at low listening levils.

I see a fellow poster mentions you are running a receiver. You really should look at investing into some good amps and pre amps to drive those nice new Khorns.

JM

[leok]

Dean,

I AM old and gray and I want the caddies now .. but there's the small house.

DTLongo,

Bass at low levels (or any level). What are your sources and amps? If you listen at low levels with KHorns, you're talking 1/10 Watt and below. That's where tube amps, especially SETs are at their best and transistor amps are at their worst. What happens is, distortion creates sum and difference frequencies from the existing harmonics. These additional frequencies add perceived (and real) power to the mid and upper frequency regions, swamping the bass. My opinion is that adding additional electronics (tone controls, equalizers, subwoofer crossovers, etc.) in the signal path only makes the situation worse. I believe if you get a clean signal to those speakers the sound will be rich and full at all levels. I have heard this with my RF-7s and Rick's KHorns driven by my 2A3 Moondogs. Also, the speakers could probably use a few months to break-in .. be patient.

leok

[Randy Bey]

yes several people say that tube amps alleviate the poor performance at low listening volumes.

I would agree. Most SS, and perhaps all HT SS, would not be adequate gear to run khorns.

There may be exceptions out there, but with only two speakers, I think it's a realistic assessment.

[DTLongo]

Very interesting replies, thank you. I should have mentioned my amp previously - it's a ca. 15-year-old Kenwood KA-8800 integrated stereo amplifier (not a receiver). Solid state, to be sure. A robust, faithful thing which has never sounded so good as through the Klipschorns. The Khorns are hooked up to speaker output A, the Velodyne sub to speaker B, and the equalizer to the tape monitor circuit. So, I can switch the Velodyne in and out with the Khorns at will via the speaker Both setting and the equalizer through the tape monitor circuit. The amp has a switchable loudness circuit which helps some at low volumes, but otherwise tends to muddy the sound. I prefer to switch in the Velodyne at lower volumes or with bass-shy program material. At louder volumes I run the Khorns alone, loudness off, with the amp bass control turned up to the 3:00 position for a slight bass boost and the treble control vertical (flat).

I have heard that tube amplifiers are ideal for the Khorns but did not know that tubes would make such a difference in the bass at low volumes. I wonder why, technically. I guess that sometime I will have to look into acquiring one but I hear they're very expensive. For the moment, my budget has to recover after purchase of the Khorns. (Too bad I don't still have that nice mono Heathkit 20-watt tuber I built as a kid in the 1950's - sigh.)

[horonzak]

TLONGO- You might be experiencing Fletcher Munson curve problems at low listening levels. IN that your ears not atuned to low bass at the softer volume levels. Its easy to blame the speakers when they are REALLY trying to tell you some thing is happening. Try to borrow some body,s McIntosh preamp with a varible loudness control & see what happens. (this is only a check test).

[AndyKubicki]

Well Tom, you are hooked for life! I went from an Audire/Adcom SS combo amp/preamp to a Scott integrated. Although I did not percieve an initial lack of bass, and I have an "L" shaped room, so it can't be good acoustically, I did notice the Scott was very strong in the bass range and even reproduced notes played on an acoustic bass more clearly than the SS amp. It could also be that your ears need burn in time...was the bass boosted or exaggerated on your previous sytem? Maybe giving you some more time will fix this...but I must say, when I want to listen, I crank and the rafters rattle! The whole signal is more apparent then. Some music was not meant to be played softly.

[ricktate]

Hey DT why dont you try an HK430, they dont cost to much...im sure you will like it more than what you have now.....it will make those k-horns sing....Rick

[jdm56]

I really think Maron is on the money, regarding your apparent lack of bass at low levels; It's your darned human hearing apparatus! Those Fletcher-Munson curves tell the whole story: We just don't hear bass very well at low levels. That's why they came up with those loudness controls (which mostly don't work too well, as you've noted). Also, K-horn bass is clean, clean, clean, too; no muddied up, distorted or exaggerated bass. These factors, combined with your shorter than ideal corners, and perhaps some other room related issues, probably explains the apparent lack of bass you are hearing. IMHO, of course.

[Craighorn]

DTLongo - Would you be so kind as to e-mail me where you got your new Klipschorns from... and what you paid for them ? From everything I have read today, I think new with the most recent crossover is the way to go... Thanks

[AnalOg]

DTLongo,

I too own the same Kenwood model, purchased about the same time. I can tell you coupled with my rf3II's, it did not do justice to even those speakers in more aspects than just bass. I lacked in just about all the qualities it takes to get a great musical experience provided in good SS gear, and better yet, tube amplfication. I'm not trying to rain on your parade but you got to give those speakers what they deserve, good amplification will blow your mind, compared to that Kenwood. I know I've been there.

Thankx

Tom

[Deang]

That's right -- spend $7K on a set of Klipschorns, and then upgrade from a Kenwood to a 15 year old, $60 integrated off of eBay.

Puhleeez.

[Dflip]

You can pick up a used Scott, 299B and send it to Craig to do the rebuilding. It would cost something in the neighbourhood of $5 - 600 US when you are finished. Add another $200 to replace some of the tubes with NOS versions and you have a very nice set up.

Not as good as some other tube offerings, but also not at the $2000 + level. Others can offer you suggestions in this price range.