leok Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 mdeneen, That last paragraph part was what I was interested in. I haven't picked up on it before, so at least for me it was worth repeating. It makes sense in a lot of real obvious ways, esp the crossover part. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triode Pete Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 mdeneen - Peace, brother! Have you ever heard Klipschorns (in a decent room) with a good 3.5 watt 2A3 SET and a good tube (triode) preamp? If not, you cannot judge! Your'e dead wrong about the dynamics! When I first joined my NYC/LI audio club, I mentioned my low-powered system to a couple members & they all snickered & laughed. No power, no dynamics, why bother? Then I had a club meeting & their jaws dropped! Comments like "The best stand-up bass I've ever heard", "the bass is incredible", "its like they're live, it's real", "it's better than any of the rooms at the NYC Stereophile (Primedia) show!", "wow, dead silence in between notes", "the best 'jump factor' around", etc, etc. Another comment (from our club president) was, " I was told triodes (SET) have no bass - those people don't know what they're talking about!" And all this from a fairly modest system costing less than a new pair of K-horns (and much less than some of the club members CD transports alone!!) As Joe Roberts said, "Power ain't nothing but a number". It's true! I had a very hard time understanding this (for a long time) since I'm an analytical, anal-retentive, Professional Enginerd who usually places judgment on cold, hard numbers based on physics & true, good science. You need to hear it to believe it. Even Paul Klipsch commented that designing great sounding speakers took good science but also some "dirty tricks" (that he couldn't explain scientifically). It must have drove him nuts! I'm not saying "SET" is for everyone. I like push-pull (I have a couple p-p tube amps) for what they do. I also try to be"open-minded" - I'd like to try some tri-path (or 47 labs gaincard) amps. They may sound great -- but I don't know until I try. Be careful on bi-amping or tri-amping -- all the systems I heard were "messed" up somewhat, probably from the different gains of different amps (SS, p-p, SET, etc.) even with an active crossover or maybe because it was too complicated (ha-ha - just kidding). Everyone, Enjoy the 4th of July (Independence Day), Pete PS - Please remember what happened to the original signers of the Declaration of Independence. Most of them (and their families) either died, were tortured or received poverty as their reward. Please silently thank these Patriots for their sacrifices for our Independence! Peace! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigma Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 mdeneen, I would be interested in discussing Tri- Amping with you ofline sometime. Email me with a phone number, if that is ok with you, and I will call you. I am currently tri-amping Khorns with SS and would like to do what you discussed in your last post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triode Pete Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 mdeneen -- Are you Tom "Altec" Brennan in disguise??? Only kidding! Yeah, the bass in K-horns is different (I consider unconventional). Doesn't go as low as some crazy sytems but I believe it is generally accurate in reproducing acoustic instrument recordings. I've heard a bunch of high $$$ subterrinean bass systems that sounded like special effects, not real. I wish the K-horn crossover could be at 200 Hz...I think you lose some detail in the 200-400Hz range with the folded horn. oh well, I'll suffer. Have a great holiday, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Pack Rat, RE: "I personally love the sound of my SETs, actually most SETs, but when it comes down to filling a room with sound I fire up the Maggies with 250 watts/channel of clean solid state and a 500 watt sub. Everyone that's listened likes the sound of the SETs and is usually impressed with the soundstage, ambience and the "I can see the band" clarity but when the same track is played on the Maggies with light dimming power the response is "WOW"." Give me a break. Maggies? With 250w/ch? & a 500watt sub? LMFAO Are you sure you're on the right Forum? Anyone who thinks that setup is the "WOW" system compared to a 2A3/Klipsch (preferably Khorn, Belle or LaScala) has their head stuck up their a$$. Seriously. Mike Sanders, founder & owner of Quicksilver Audio has been making low powered tube amps for years. He used be an engineer at Magnepan. I'll give you ONE guess what speakers he's been using the last 20+ years. (hint: it ain't Maggies) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Mike does his listenig with Klipschorns -- but he sure doesn't do it with 3.5 watts. I'd sure like to know what low powered amps he's been building for "years". He just released the Horn Monos with 25wpc, but everything else he's done has been relatively high powered. Even his triode amps are designed to peel the wallpaper off the wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istari Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 Some have implied that PWK in later years suggested that the Klipschorns be fed higher doses of clean power not just "One clean watt". All I will say is look at the middle of page 178 in the the bio "Paul Wilber Klipsch, The Life...The legend. It says: Paul and Mike were hanging out in the Hard Rock Hotel on the eleventh floor at the CES in January 2001. It was Saturday afternoon and the NFL playoffs were on TV. Mike asked Paul what he thought was better for the Klipschorn, tube amps with pentode tubes or tube amps with triodes? "He (Paul) stared right at me, let a moment pass, and very powerfully said, 'What the hell do you need a pentode tube for with a damn Klipschorn when all you need is a damn triode tube, for godsakes? All the hell you need is one good clean watt!" So as late as 2001 PWK was still standing by his "One clean watt" statement for the Khorns... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted July 3, 2003 Share Posted July 3, 2003 I think Paul would have liked a single-ended Pentode amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Paul and Mike were hanging out in the Hard Rock Hotel on the eleventh floor at the CES in January 2001. It was Saturday afternoon and the NFL playoffs were on TV. Mike asked Paul what he thought was better for the Klipschorn, tube amps with pentode tubes or tube amps with triodes? "He (Paul) stared right at me, let a moment pass, and very powerfully said, 'What the hell do you need a pentode tube for with a damn Klipschorn when all you need is a damn triode tube, for godsakes? All the hell you need is one good clean watt!" That sounds like Hearsay and not admissible in court !! Dope from Hope is PWK actual writings ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triode Pete Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Triodes rule! "If you got ears, you gotta listen!" --- Captain Beefheart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Very recently Chris Robinson's Wright Monos have found their way to Germany and I must say his words are no exaggeration: this combo goes together really well but more of that I shall be reporting later - once I have spent more time with those amps. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted July 4, 2003 Share Posted July 4, 2003 Wolfram, Did you already receive your 8B? Regards, Guy L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 Guy, yes, indeed I did. It seems to be working okay, BUT the bias meter (or the switch) isn't working. I'll have to see what can be done about it. I will be reporting on all my new amps later, but that much can be said already: is anybody looking for a MC-225? Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 Wolfram, I think that you can still get a replacement meter and switch from VAC (who used to build the Marantz reissues). I did so, several years ago. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pack Rat Posted July 5, 2003 Share Posted July 5, 2003 ---------------- On 7/3/2003 5:29:08 PM artto wrote: Pack Rat, RE: "I personally love the sound of my SETs, actually most SETs, but when it comes down to filling a room with sound I fire up the Maggies with 250 watts/channel of clean solid state and a 500 watt sub. Everyone that's listened likes the sound of the SETs and is usually impressed with the soundstage, ambience and the "I can see the band" clarity but when the same track is played on the Maggies with light dimming power the response is "WOW"." Give me a break. Maggies? With 250w/ch? & a 500watt sub? LMFAO Are you sure you're on the right Forum? Anyone who thinks that setup is the "WOW" system compared to a 2A3/Klipsch (preferably Khorn, Belle or LaScala) has their head stuck up their a$$. Seriously. Mike Sanders, founder & owner of Quicksilver Audio has been making low powered tube amps for years. He used be an engineer at Magnepan. I'll give you ONE guess what speakers he's been using the last 20+ years. (hint: it ain't Maggies) ---------------- Artto, Maybe I didn't make myself clear. My choice is SETs and though I'm new to horns, Forte IIs for less than a month, I like the sound level the combo is capable of. My point was that most visitors to my home enjoy the sound of the SET Forte setup but they almost always prefer the high powered SS, Maggie, subwoofer combo. Keep in mind that these people almost always have some kind of surround reciever and almost never listen to music other than background music. Most of their listening is DVD video soundtracks and perhaps they can better relate to the SS home theatre setup rather than the SETs and vinyl. It's all a matter of perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Here's a link to an interesting article by Joe Roberts. Talks about SET with interesting perspective acknowledging the tendency of some to ascribe metaphysical qualities to SET. http://www.atma-sphere.com/jroberts.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisK Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Very interesting article. Thanks for the link. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 8, 2003 Share Posted July 8, 2003 Yes, thanks Dee -- that was a good read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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