OMG! IT'S AMAZING WHAT A FEW INCHES CAN DO!

[prodj101]

someone on the forum once told me that the placement of the RF speakers matters down to the inch. I finally took the advice today and spent some time realigning my speakers. the results were amazing. I got them texactly the same distance from the listening position, from the side walls, and toed them in slightly to the outside of the head, so the horns are pointing more towards the ears. most noted is the EXTREME increase in imaging quality. they don't even sound like the same speakers. jeeeeeezzzzz. thats all I can say.

[Chris Robinson]

Well, God is in the details. Good move, and I envy your feeling of zen.

Amazing what horns can do when properly positioned.

[Guy Landau]

That reminds me of a joke.

A couple is making love and the husband says "if I only had another inch, I would have been a king"

The wife replies "Honey, If you've had one inch less, you could have been a queen"

Sometimes one inch can make all the difference.

[tpg]

I wish I had time to sit around and listen anymore...

This is about the first post I have made in a week or more.... Three days a week, I get home after 6:30 from school.... on Wed. I get home "early" and then have to leave and go somewhere else until about 7:30... Fridays, who knows what will happen.... Saturdays are always busy, Sundays are lost... and then it is school again... And to top it off, I don't really like my classes much, and band is not fun for me anymore. There is something about not being appreciated for what you do and spend all your time doing that really gets you down... But.... I have only listened to music about 20 minutes or so in the past week+.

[WMcD]

That is kinda my experience with the Forte II at the office. They are symetrically placed in a symetrical room. At least that end of the room. They do create a center image better than just about any other I've experienced.

I am still a fan of a center speaker though.

I wonder how many set ups suffer from lack of imaging because the room and seating position just don't allow for such symetry.

Gil

[Chris Robinson]

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On 8/26/2003 7:46:46 PM William F. Gil McDermott wrote:

I wonder how many set ups suffer from lack of imaging because the room and seating position just don't allow for such symetry.

Gil

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Really fine question ... The room, the room, the room. I keep coming back to it. After the amp/speaker capital investments, that's what left.

It may be cheaper to perfect the room than to try to grab the last 1% from the 2-channel gear.

[prodj101]

the center image on my set up right now is as good as any system I've ever heard. after moving to the dedicated room (look in my signature) I had alot more flexibility, and could actually put them somewhere decent, even though I know thats far from optimal. I have tried using a center channel before for my 2 chan listening and don't find it as good as a nice stereo image. it has always sounded more forced, and less natural to me, if thats a decent way of describing it. it's just less seamless than it would be with a good set of stereo speakers and equipment. also, after moving them around a little, the sound seemed to warm up a little bit, and I get more of the "warmth" mcintosh amplifiers are known for. this is probably due to less reflections on the side walls.

[Dflip]

I find moving my Cornwalls that inch forward, backwards, towards or away from a side wall makes a difference. I find there is a direct relationship between the soundstage and the bass impact from the speaker. Closer to the wall more pronounced bass, further from the wall a more noticeable soundstage, but less bass.

My friend didn't believe this until I did the same thing with his Heresys. He finally confirmed that they did sound better out from the wall where it allowed the sound to open up and provide more detail. Less bass, but they sounded clearer with some punch.

You just have to play with the combination, until you get what is right for you.

[mobile homeless]

I've tried to stress this very thing in here for years. It is actually one of the advantages to having the Cornwalls. I find it actually does sound better out from the wall, this distance depending on the room. Imaging and soundstaging properties always take a dramatic leap forward away from the sidewalls and out from the wall behind the speakers. Speaker placement is more critical for monitors but the Cornwalls benefit as well. I actually didnt expect the Cornwalls to image as well as my ProAcs and they dont but they are more dynamic and open sounding, feeling less hemmed in. Even a 6-8 inches out makes a difference.

With my monitor speakers, I try to bring them at least 3 feet from the back wall and as far from the side walls as I can. My ProAcs actually did insanely good over 8 feet from the back wall, where the image of the players on stage would actually materialize between and behind the speakers. I have heard the drummer actually sound like he was coming from BEHIND the wall by feet. It is one amazing thing to hear. I agree, a center speaker is actually less appealing than a properly setup pair of speakers when the soundstage is more realistic and natural. Until you hear this effect, you dont know what this really feels like. Klipsch Heritage arent the best for these kind of visuals but they have other strengths. Some think this is artificial but when done properly, it can sound like a live event and almost spooky real.

Speaker placement can make or break a setup.

kh

[formica]

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On 8/26/2003 8:43:25 PM Chris Robinson wrote:

...the room. I keep coming back to it. After the amp/speaker capital investments, that's what left.

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That is one thing I like about these forums... well informed people who will be able to look beyond all the hardware-marketing strategies.

You wouldn't believe how many people just don't believe me when I try to explain the importance of room effects especially for the lower frequencies. I'd even up room importance to second right after the actual speakers.

Rob

[maxg]

Preaching to the converted here. I work on the basis that a decent sounding room can make any system sound as good as one costing twice as much in a lesser environment.

On the subject of soundstaging I would say that this is THE major benefit I have experienced since switching from the Heresy's to my own home built speakers (well that and bass but the bass is less aparent as I no longer run the REL sub).

I dont want to go on about my own speakers (expecially as no-one here has the ability to hear them - or is likely too unless they have a trip to Greece planned) but the depth of soundstage I now have is simply staggering.

I would compare my current depth to that of the Quad 989's that a friend has - and that is supposed to be the last word in depth...

[Colin]

I once moved a small pair of loudspeakers all over the front of my listening room and took over a dozen measurements, only to confirm what audiophiles have known for years: the dimensions of the room sets up nodes where certain frequencies are emphasized and others are depressed. These anomalies in the frequency response greatly affect our impression of a loudspeakers tone, balance, definition, imaging and soundstage.

After more than a dozen different measurements, the flattest response for the loudspeakers in my tests did indeed conform to the golden ratios that George Cardas writes about in his excellent article at EnjoyTheMusic.com: Setting Up Loudspeakers

In A Rectangular Room, http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0602/cardas.html.

Tweaking audiophiles would be wise to follow his advice. The exception to his instructions being that the directivity of horn drivers means that big ol' horns should be pointed either directly at the ears in the sweet listening spot, or just behind the head. That way, big ol' horns will create a 3D sonic hologram ("Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope.") and wide soundstage good enough to rival Princess Leiha and Lucas dream systems.

[avman]

i found that toe-in-out made a BIG difference in the soundstage of my klf-30's. i don't have alot of room to move them closer together/further apart, but i sit 13ft. back from them, and they are about 10ft. apart.

avman.

[garymd]

Positioning your speakers is so critical. It took many trys to achieve that perfect mix of soundstaging, bass punch, etc. with my cornwalls. 8 inches from the wall slightly toed in, 10 feet apart and 10 feet to the listening position. It's a beautiful thing. Everyone who listens cannot believe it's only the 2 speakers working. They always walk up to the center channel speaker of my HT just to make sure I'm not pulling their leg.

[dodger]

Greetings:

In "The Dope from Hope" series, PWK details a formula for length to width to height for the best sounding room.

But as all have stressed it is the placement. What furniture you have in the room, wall composition, reflections and refractions all come into play.

An example of the same for a small speaker, a friend bought SB1s. He has them sitting on the floor. He invited me over to see his "twins."

After listening I moved the speakers about 5 inches, he was amazed.

Granted these are rear port but it gives a fairly decent idea of the interplay of equipment and placement.

Speakers are our toys. It's fun to move them around a bit a listen to the differences.

Win dodger

[artto]

When you (re)position your speakers, you basically are accomplishing two things. One, as Colin mentioned regarding the George Cardas article, setting up speakers relative to the golden mean ratio can have a (limited) benefit in achieving smoother response (to a certain extent). However, the ONLY way to overcome this to the fullest extent is to have the room proportions correct & minimize parallel surfaces in the first place.

The second thing it accomplishes is, by moving the speaker out of the corner, away from the side walls, and reducing the angle of toe in, short term reflections from the side & front walls are reduced in the middle & high frequencies. However, once again, this is only a partial & incomplete solution. It does nothing to alter the acoustical conditions that actually contribute to resulting sound quality such as reverberation time relative to frequency, the room reflection patterns, or room modes (single & compound resonances).

As far as center speakers go, it is an absolute must that they are setup properly. I experimented with center speakers for years. Ultimately, I bit the bullet & bought a Belle, bought 3 identical power amps, built the Klipsch 2PH3 phantom circuit, AND, dont turn it up too loud! It doesnt take much. You shouldnt actually be able to hear the center speaker. Normally the center speaker (in 2-channel audio) should be about 3dB lower than either the right or left speaker. Depending on the source material, this may vary to as much as 6dB or as little as 2 or -1dB. When properly matched & setup, a center speaker provides a seamless soundstage with improved sound localization, sense of space, and place. If you are not experiencing this, the system in not setup properly (including the room).

And Chris After the amp/speaker capital investments, that's what left. It may be cheaper to perfect the room than to try to grab the last 1% from the 2-channel gear.

I couldn't agree more!

[WMcD]

Naturally I agree with artoo.

I find that different recording benefit from different levels of the center. I can only guess this arises from the settings the recording engineer uses. Some have strong center pan settings. I.e., the singer is really panned to the center and not much help is needed. In others, a center can be a benefit.

One thought is that we're really talking about engineering compromises and solutions. You have to work with what you have.

Some rooms are poor for allowing a phantom center image and there no choice, short of moving walls, than to use a center. Of course you can always turn it off, or down.

As pointed out, with speaker placement you may have a difficult choice between bass (putting them in a corner to get corner bass loading) or imaging (move them out of the corner to lessen treble reflections).

Then there is the problem of having the beasts farther into the living space.

It would be interesting to try absortive material in the corner which will cut down the treble reflection and leave the bass boost alone.

Gil

[mace]

To approximately quote PW Klipsch from the Dope From Hope package sent out by artto (btw, many thanks again to artto for the excellent compilation!! I just got around to reading it last week and it is chalk full of interesting tidbits):

* Put the speakers on the wide wall of the room.

* Any speaker sounds better in a corner, especially Heritage ones, which sound best in a corner. This includes Belle, La Scala, Cornwall and Heresey. Put them in the corner and toe them in 45 degrees to put the dispersion into the room and not against the walls. Frequency response is flatter in the corner. You get up to 6 dB output for given wattage which means lower distortion (especially intermodulation distortion, which is nasty on the ears), especially important for direct radiators.

* Room acoustics are incredibly important. Treat the room with some rounded surfaces to get rid of Eigentons (standing waves).

* Center channel is needed for wide stage stereo.

* 9/10 of what you hear in a room is reflections.

* And I quote PWK: "Imaging... whatever that is..."

Bottom line is Klipsch of old said stick it in the corner and that's the best it gets. Seems times have changed or PWK was wrong.

Mace

[mobile homeless]

Can I get an Amen on that one, brother? AMEN!

[Deang]

Hee hee.

"...by moving the speaker out of the corner, away from the side walls, and reducing the angle of toe in, short term reflections from the side & front walls are reduced in the middle & high frequencies."

According to PK -- there are LESS short term high frequency reflections when speakers are in the corners.