The Power and Glory of ZEN...will my Cornwalls embrace it and my McIntosh despise it?

[jt1stcav]

I'm scared!

First off, I wanna be a bottlehead again; a TRUE lover of the valve arts.

This tube virus infected me years ago when my dad repaired an old Hammond B3 organ tube amp, then later on to full-scale vintage vacuum tube radio repairs and restorations. As a kid he built me my first tube shortwave radio (just completed another one over 4 months ago), and I've assembled a small collection of antique tube radios over the years. My first hi-fi component to contain a pair of 12AU7 and 12AX7 tubes was a mediocre Taiwanese preamp that sounded good but lacked serious refinement, and was later sold.

Several months ago my youngest brother borrowed a friend's Cary Audio SLI-80 PP integrated amp for a week...how impressive it was to hear his Magnepan MGLR1 and old Infinity Reference Standard 6 Kappa loudspeakers come to life in a way none of us was ever accustomed to with megawatt SS amps. It inspired my other brother to recently purchase a mint JoLida JD 202a integrated tube amp for his HT, replacing his trusted and true McIntosh MC2100 (for sale on AudiogoN.com currently). There is that special magic with tubes that is in no way hype, and music sounds closest to the actual event right there in your listening room!

But I'm still scared!

I'm almost afraid to make that big transition from SS to vacuum tube amplification. I love my classic MC250...it's the only SS amp I've heard that's closest to sounding tube-like for so little money, built like a tank, and super reliable and dependable to boot. This Mac really makes my ol' Cornwalls belt out those massive Bach preludes and fugues and Widor organ symphonies to near-live volumes, with plenty of power to spare when I feel like 100dB or more isn't quite enough!

Lately I've been doing alot of reading on this forum about Klipsch Heritage horns and those magical flea-powered SET amps from the likes of Welborne Labs, Paramour, Horus et al, and have thought of taking the giant leap from transistors to tubes. After much critical listening to the Cary and JoLida PP amps, I know for a fact that someday I will go all-out valves for my audio system (my AMC tube preamp was just the beginning), but to what tube design?

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against PP designs (and seeing how popular vintage H.H. Scott, EICO, and Fisher integrated amps have become lately, neither has alot of others). The latest tube amps from such companies as Manley, VAC, Rogue, Granite, Hovland, McIntosh, conrad-johnson, Audio Research, etc., have proven how advanced tube technology has become (with no end in site). But to me there seems to be a bit more mystique with the simple triode design (the "less is more" term comes to mind here), and seeing how efficient my Cornwalls are, why not take advantage of their sensitivity by using a straightforward no-thrills SET?

Many forum members here do, with exceptional results...the magical first watt makes the triode what it is, and Klipsch horn speakers are more than eager to sing their song of praise! I also find intriguing the point-to-point wiring (no circuit boards), a beefy tube rectifier, big home-spun iron, top quality caps, and zero feedback, just to name a few. And lately I've been reading up on the design philosophy of Steve Deckert's Decware SE84C Zen Triode Stereo Amplifier...a lil' Class A gem of about 5 WPC with a pair of SV83 output tubes (can also use EL84/6BQ5 tubes with no modifications), a single 6N1P or 6DJ8/6922 input tube, a 5Y3 rectified power supply, a single gain control, and a selectable bias switch which offers two distictive sonic characteristics. It's somewhat utilitarian looking, but Decware offers a wood base to dress it up.

The Zen is available factory-direct for $499 with a lifetime warranty...this attracts me most of all! Plus all the rave reviews I've read about the Zen so far are fabulous. If I was a DIYer, I could buy the kit for $100 less. It sounds like a million bucks, and costs peanuts!

But I'm really scared!

As some of you know, I primarily listen to digital recordings of classical pipe organ music, along with orchestral works, jazz, the blues, and lastly classic rock. I usually listen to my favorite organ works rather loudly (upwards to 100dB and more, with lots of deep bass fundamentals on some 32' organ stops that reach to below 18Hz). The McIntosh MC250 has no problems keeping up with my level adjustments, which sometimes I like to raise to what sounds like near-concert levels in my smallish listening room (at the 12:00 position on the gain controls). Just now I listened to Cesar Franck's 27 minute long Grande Piece Symphonique, Opus 17, played by Michael Murray on the Cavaille-Coll organ at St. Sernin, Toulouse (1990, Telarc CD-80234), and the final 4 minute movement (Beaucoup plus largement) at full organ had peaked at 107dB, C weighted at my listening position on my SPL meter! I don't know what that translates into watts used with 98.5dB sensitive loudspeakers, but I can assume for a SS amp it was more than 15 watts each!

Can the Zen (or any other triode driven amp) drive my Cornwalls to such high level extremes? I understand that transistor watts and triode watts are totally different, that power transformers play a major part in the development of the SET's design, and that SS harmonic distortion is just the opposite of the triode's distortion; I don't know the specifics or how it all works, but I'm willin' to be educated here by you all! I'd like to own the Zen triode, but I'm afraid the power rating would be less than what I would require, and I simply can't afford any of the audiophile high-megabuck SET amps over a $1000, not unless I win the Lotto (fat chance). I don't want to change my listening habits to having to turn the volume down just to enjoy AC/DC or Beethoven at 100dB! I like having the option to raise the level...not be restricted to only a certain amount when I know my Cornwalls are capable of rock concert volumes!

Now I'm really scared to hear what I don't want to hear...your answers (I may not like the truth)! Go ahead, scare the hell outta me!

[bkrop]

Heh heh, you have got the bug bad!

I am no expert on tubes so take what I am saying FWIW.

Reread Kellys postings about why he feels he needs 2 tube topologies in his house, SET for low level magic and push pull for high spl listening!

I hope I have accurately portrayed his position, I myself like the tube sound and value of restored vintage amps.

Good luck! I know other far more knowledgable members will chime in.

[IB Slammin]

Jim,

Im scared too.

I missed the C30s at that old church, but will continue to look.

Want to try " best of both worlds" (?)......Tube tops and use the Lux for the bottom.

Terry

[Cut-Throat]

Hi,

I had the Decware Zen amp in my home for a trial period and it just did not have enough power for me. I'm not sure how much power the Zen put out, but I can safely say that my 3.25 watt per channel Moondogs are a lot more powerful!

Another member here tried the Zen with his 104db Khorns and he did not think it had enough power for them.

While we both agreed that the Zen sounded very nice, it was just too low power.

I would steer you towards a 2A3 or 300b from Welborne Labs.

[Parrot]

Jim,

If you dig very deep on the net you'll find numerous people who were very disappointed with the Zen's lack of power. If my memory is correct, people were claiming it is closer to 1 watt than 5.

If you buy it, I can tell you right now it's not going to cut it on organ music. Physics dictates that it cannot possibly have enough power to get the peaks you want. It would fall flat on its face.

Now if you were going to listen to a female singer with a little soft jazz accompaniment, and wanted it only for background music, it might be another story.

[Deang]

What bullsh!t. No one needs more than 3 watts.

[Parrot]

Dean-o,

Was that 1.5W per channel?

[Deang]

Whoops, forgot.

What bullsh!t. No one needs more than 1.5 watts per channel.

[Cut-Throat]

When I had the Zen amp, I actually took it over to Frank Van Alstine's place and he measured it at under 1 watt per channel. So indeed you are talking about a very, very low power amp. That is why specs on amps can be very misleading. How they are measured vary from Mfgr to Mfgr.

I would disagree with Dean though, I just ordered my DRD45 from Welborne Labs last week and these Monoblocks put out a massive 1.8 watts per channel. So some of us do need/want more than 1.5 watts per channel.

[Randy Bey]

yeah, I had a Zen for 30 days once.

It petered out on moderate listening levels with moderately complex material.

Don't do it.

Sounds great if you listen nearfield to little-girl-with-guitar music; otherwise you will be disappointed.

Sounds great though. That little useless POS introduced me to tube sound, for that I will be eternally grateful.

[Curmudgeon]

I would much rather have 3 dB of dynamic headroom than 3 WPC. I wanna see the lights dim when I switch an amp on!

[mike stehr]

As a owner of a 6BQ5 pentode connected SE stereo power amp with feedback, which is kinda close to the Decware amp.

And reading what your music tastes are with the pipe organ music, I'd say go with what the posters said and stay away from the Decware.

My little SE amp cranks well with Cornwall's in a small room.

But a large room? Forget it.

Triodes have that big full sound which may seem to fool folks into having more power.

My Magnavox SE amp, has a smaller more kinda compressed sound than a Single-Ended Triode amp, which seems wider and fuller, if that makes a damn bit of sense.

And if you are looking for a Triode amp that will be able to dig down to those pipe organ frequencies, then you are going to need some serious output iron.

I dunno, but I wouldn't discredit in PP in your situation.

Unless you want to make up the difference with a subwoofer.

I've been subwoofer free for two months now, I think my EQ died.

[greg928gts]

I have a little bit to add here. I currently have a SET amp on my Khorns and I've tried it on Cornwalls. I was surprised at how much less volume I could get on the Corns. The difference in efficiency is a lot. I know some might say that my SET amp is not the highest output, but I don't think SET will be enough for your high volume sessions. But you shouldn't deprive yourself of the experience of owning a good SET amp, at least for a while.

I too have had McIntosh SS for years until stumbling onto tube amps. I struggled at first with the idea of not using the Macs I had grown so accustomed to. I've decided to keep the Macs and also have tube amps. Amp rolling.

Greg

[NOSValves]

What the world needs is a good 500 watt Ultra Linear amp !! Hey Deano

[djk]

"Whoops, forgot.

What bullsh!t. No one needs more than 1.5 watts per channel."

At a typical listening distance of 10' that will be about 10dB short of what a symphony is mid-hall.

Richard Heyser measured the Klipschorn at 101dB in the 1989 review, this was referenced to 8 ohms, and the speaker clearly drops below this in the range where music has the most acoustic power.

1.5W is 1.76dB higher than 1W, add 3dB for the second speaker = 105.76dB at 1M peak output for the pair. 10' subracts 9.67dB.

Average orchestral music can hit 105dB mid-hall. This does not sound very loud at all because of the very high peak-to-average ratio in this kind of music, on the order of 20dB or more.

I like 'BIG' stuff like Copeland, Berliotz, Stravinsky, etc. It gets louder.

A friend of mine has some 107dB speakers I built for him. Most of the time he listens at less than 100mW. On a couple of Sheffield Lab direct disc recordings his +22dBW amplifer comes up way short of making the drums sound 'real'.

Most recordings sound so flawed you cannot listen to 1W.

[J M O N]

Based on your description of what you listen to, and what levels you want to get to, I don't think an SET will quite do it for you. It is hard to say, as I am just going by your descriptions, but 18Hz organ music at concert-level volumes probably won't get there with an SET, especially considering that Cornwalls aren't quite as efficient as KHorns. I have an Audio Research VT-50 power amp that puts out 45 wpc. That will likely run above your budget, even used, but it would fit the bill. This amp will play as loud as I ever care to listen to, and I have used Cornwalls with it in the past. I'm sure there are other options out there for you, but my guess is that you will need to look elsewhere from SET. Don't despair though, you can still get great sound.

[Deang]

DJK, I sure hope you didn't think I was serious. BTW, did you get my PM/email a few days ago?

Jim, my suggestion is to keep the Mac you love, take that money, and buy the best tube preamp you can. Seriously.

Craig, we might like 845 SET.

[IB Slammin]

----------------

On 10/4/2003 8:48:53 PM djk wrote:

"Whoops, forgot.

What bullsh!t. No one needs more than 1.5 watts per channel."

At a typical listening distance of 10' that will be about 10dB short of what a symphony is mid-hall.

Richard Heyser measured the Klipschorn at 101dB in the 1989 review, this was referenced to 8 ohms, and the speaker clearly drops below this in the range where music has the most acoustic power.

1.5W is 1.76dB higher than 1W, add 3dB for the second speaker = 105.76dB at 1M peak output for the pair. 10' subracts 9.67dB.

Average orchestral music can hit 105dB mid-hall. This does not sound very loud at all because of the very high peak-to-average ratio in this kind of music, on the order of 20dB or more.

I like 'BIG' stuff like Copeland, Berliotz, Stravinsky, etc. It gets louder.

A friend of mine has some 107dB speakers I built for him. Most of the time he listens at less than 100mW. On a couple of Sheffield Lab direct disc recordings his +22dBW amplifer comes up way short of making the drums sound 'real'.

Most recordings sound so flawed you cannot listen to 1W.

----------------

Well Yah......

Tube-ie sounding Lux M-117 in BTL at 440wpc makes the drums sound sort of "real" into four CWs.

But still looking for the Tube Top and SS Bottom.

tc

[Deang]

IB, I used an M-117 for almost 10 years with an Anthem Pre1L tube preamp and some Magapan 1.5QRs. That's a very sweet sounding amp. You must have two of them if you are bridging them. Since the M-117 stays stable down below 4 ohms, and the Cornwall is only rated to take 100 wpc -- why are you bridging? Things should sound much better if the amps aren't bridged.

[Painful Reality]

----------------

On 10/4/2003 5:54:34 PM paulparrot wrote:

Jim,

If you dig very deep on the net you'll find numerous people who were very disappointed with the Zen's lack of power. If my memory is correct, people were claiming it is closer to 1 watt than 5.

If you buy it, I can tell you right now it's not going to cut it on organ music. Physics dictates that it cannot possibly have enough power to get the peaks you want. It would fall flat on its face.

Now if you were going to listen to a female singer with a little soft jazz accompaniment, and wanted it only for background music, it might be another story.

----------------

The Day the Earth stood still

I'll (slightly) go with Sir Parrot here!

I heard the Zen both on my Lamhorns and on Cornwalls. Plus a couple of other speakers. This amp is a pathetic joke (IMHO of course). It just don't cut it... At all...

The Zen won't go with anything, be it soft music, hard rock, sine wave tone, beer bottles opening recordings or any Three Blind Mices Horrors. It won't even play Holey Coal or Sarah K. At this price buy a Eico, a Scott, a Fisher, whatever... The Zen won't give you any idea of what a good SET amp can give.

If you want to listen to organ music with a low power SET, you'll need one with some solid bottom end. This exclude the Wright 2A3, the Paramour and and all the SETs build to meet a price point. The Moondogs would fit the bill. I'm pretty sure the Paraglow II form Bottlehead/Exmpla Audio would be really OK too. Of course you'll have to assemble it yourself or pay for having it assembled. It's pretty much far from the $499 price tag. I have not a clue about the new kits from Welborne but they seem to be promising.

Excellent low power SETs amp are costly usually. While you can have really good PP amps for less than $1000, I think this does not apply to SETs (unless you swap them used but even though, used Moondogs usually sells for more than they were paid for). SET amps needs top notch OPTs to have good bass and excellent OPTs usually cost more than the Zen itself.