Where do you Set your Knobs

[ben.]

My Paragon 12 has ladder switches for its three-band EQ, as Tony describes. All but the most deficient recordings don't need them, IMO. They could use some attention, though, as my tech indicated there is a bit o' DC on them. I've left it alone, as I really don't feel the need for them very often. I like what they do, as they are subtle & prohibit overuse. That is, if they are working close to their design intent.

Vintage pieces (well, I guess the Paragon is 25 yrs old, too) are a whole other story. All of the older integrateds I've played with sound better to me when mucked about with. Could be their condition, my ears, or both.

Dave Fridmann put it to me this way: "Mix with your ears, not your eyes. Quit looking at meters, unless you hear something's wrong first." The guy who recorded all of The Cars' early records didn't use any VU meters at all. He just turned it up until he heard the tape start to compress a bit.

[mike stehr]

"IME, the tone control setups on most preamps - especially vintage jobs - are seriously compromised by cheap pots and really super cheap caps, Often 5-cent ceramics."

How can you decipher those little ceramic dog bone shaped caps that just have color bands for values?

The reason is I have this little RCA SE 6BQ5 amplifier, and it is strapped in triode.

I know these vintage controls are pretty much useless,

(my local audio friend would attest to that) but the bass pot in this case seems to control the lower midrange and midrange as well.

The treble pot just works like a attenuator more or less.

Considering the little amp strapped in triode may be putting out 2 watts, the bass pot seems to help with getting a little meat in the tone.

Granted, it ain't nuthin' special, but the amp has had low use and the pots are not all worn out.

The pots have 100k resistors to chassis ground, with these dog bone looking ceramics. Wasn't there pretty much a general value they went with?

Maybe I'll just swap in some various values of silver micas and listen and see....

[mike stehr]

"The guy who recorded all of The Cars' early records didn't use any VU meters at all. He just turned it up until he heard the tape start to compress a bit."

Is that why "Candy O" has that annoying 60 Hz thump throughout the album?

Maybe because it's a HDCD....

[Thoriated_Tiger]

My ARC SP6A has no tone controls. It has a Balance control which remains centered (I do work it when I remember, a few times, just to keep it clean.)

I don't miss tone controls. Not since getting the Fortes. Before that, I *desperately* wished the ARC had a Loudness function.. but not anymore. (Had SF2 prior to the Fortes.)

Instead, I found that some recordings (mostly DG / DG Archiv) would sound overly bright/harsh when the orchestras were going tutti (mainly in their 4D 'DDDD' recordings.)

It was SCR / Solen MKPs in my preamp's signal path. A 'mod' by previous owner which I have been rectifiying in the past 2 weeks. I swear those MKPs lend a cheap solid-state sound to the whole rig.

No tone control coulda fixed it, because besides harsh/bright, the very leading edge of a crescendo would 'crackle' almost imperceptively. Similarly, no speaker wire or patchcord coulda fixed it. Mask it, yes, change it somewhat yes, but not eliminate it.

[RIklipsch]

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On 10/15/2004 8:14:28 AM mdeneen wrote:

IME, the tone control setups on most preamps - especially vintage jobs - are seriously compromised by cheap pots and really super cheap caps, Often 5-cent ceramics. And they don't center correctly in most cases unless there is a bypass switch. And so it's a real dillema. Adding a cheapie tone control hurts the serious appeal, adding a proper one raises the price very significantly for something used "once in a while." I dunno.

mdeneen

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I respectfully disagree with your analysis of vintage units, Mark.

I'll use H.H. Scott as an example:

If you take a look at their LC-21 or 130 preamplifiers, you will find CTS potentiometers and Mylar capacitors, no "cheap pots or ceramic caps".

Most of the decent HiFi manufacturers used higher quality components in critical signal paths. Ceramics were generally only used in feedback circuitry. H.H. Scott used little ceramic discs, if any in some models, they typically used Silver Mica caps for feedback.

Maybe by todays twisted audiophile standards CTS pots are reffered to as crap, but I honestly don't buy that. A good working CTS brand pot has a velvety smooth rotation and excellent performance.

Even most of their integrated amplifiers used these higher quality parts. It wasn't until the early 60's (64 - 66) that ceramic caps came into play in tone control circuits, and even they don't have a perceptable affect on sound for the stages they are used in.

"They don't center correctly". Perhaps the knobs on the units you've seen were misaligned? Or perhaps DC from the EQ stage amplifier was affecting the circuits performance, a common problem due to leaky capacitors. I wouldn't blame the pot itself.

I also disagree that tone controls add a cheap appeal of the product. Everyone hears differently, has different room acoustics, and to offer a means of adjusting the tone characteristics to some degree is "ideal" in my view.

It is possible to market a preamplifier with tone controls to both crowds, those who want them, and those who don't. Many manufacturers incorporated "defeat" switches which totally remove the EQ from the signal path. The only additional item in the signal path would be a pair of switch contacts, and surely those will not have any audible impact on sound in defeat mode.

-R.Inman

[RIklipsch]

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On 10/15/2004 11:23:41 AM mike stehr wrote:

How can you decipher those little ceramic dog bone shaped caps that just have color bands for values?

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Easy, Mike.

Most color-coded capacitors followed the EIA standard, and are read from left to right (following the arrow), just like a resistor:

Example

Red----Red----Orange

The first two colors are significant, the third is the multiplier.

2----2----3

22,000 micro,micro farads

OR

0.022 microfarads

-R.Inman

[D-MAN]

Flat. No cut or boost whatsoever.

Used room treatments adjusted for best response.

My motto is "if you need tone controls, your equipment sucks". (I don't mean you, I really mean me).

DM

[fini]

You know, it's funny. Just yesterday, I asked my wife "Honey, where did I set my knobs?" Turns out I'd tucked them in.

BTW, isn't it funny how when you're trying to find something, it's always in the last place you look?

[maxg]

"BTW, isn't it funny how when you're trying to find something, it's always in the last place you look?"

Whilst I recognise this is a gag....

Last night I wanted to watch the Madonna version of the Evita musical (dont ask why - long story) - anyway I keep all the DVD's in a giant drawer in 2 rows of about 60 each plus a few lying around on top.

Sorted through the lose top disks first - nope.

Went through the entire second row - nope.

Went through the entire first row - YUP - where? You guessed it - the VERY LAST F**KING DISK!!!

Murphy's law says basically - If it can go wrong it will.

Murphy was an optimist!

[Cal Blacksmith]

My current preamp is SANS tone controls. (VTL Ultamate) though I do have a 10 band EQ on the shelf in case I ever feel the need to alter the tone.

In the past when I had tone controls, they were set flat with the "defeat" switch set to cut them out abut 80% of the time. The bad recordings tend to not get played much here.

To me, the bottom line is tune it to what sounds good to your ears and don't sweat it.

[rtaylor]

Haven't had any tone controls on my main listening system for close to 20 years. The Counterpoint 7.0 didn't have any and the Blueberry also doesn't. I haven't felt the need to change any music put on the system although some has been taken off rapidly.

If the Blueberry had come with tone controls I'd have still bought it but doubt that they'd be used very often. Some of you can probably relate to a friend of mine who uses his equalizer all the time and tweaks it on almost all his cd's. Talk about not having time to just listen and enjoy. But he does enjoy it and that's ok.

On the car system I do turn up the base and treble,lol.

[bkrop]

"11"

[mark1101]

I use a DBX-1231 EQ in the signal path to adjust while I have the tone controls on the Scott integrateds set to flat. Too much difference in source material to consider no adjustments. I am primarily listening to live recordings, some old (Grateful Dead). You really can benefit from using some adjustements. Also, since I added 2 subs, the EQ is almost mandatory to knock down the bass as required. My subs are "barely on" and sound wonderful, but with proper EQing can be balanced precisely.

One other thing to mention, I was lucky enough to participate in the recent Peach Roadshow. The Peach tape monitor loop is ideal (as Mark mentioned) for using an EQ, allowing all inputs to be routed though it. The DBX sounded great with the Peach.

Everyone agreed it sounded much better EQ'd, with every single set of amps we used. Just me and my buddy's opinions, but everyone was in agreement.

I think the Peach is a fine design in that regard because it offers the best of both worlds for those who like it "straight up", and for those who prefer adjustments. Additionally, the tape monitor loop allows far more adjustablity using the equipment of your choice rather than with tone controls.

[colterphoto1]

I PUT EVERYTHING ON 11, I mean it's one louder int it! (hats off the Spinal Tap)

[colterphoto1]

Oh, bloody #e!!, someone beat me to it (#11, I mean), gotta read all the posts Michael!

But seriously, this tone thing gets really complicated with modern HT receivers. For instance, my new Yamaha RXV2400. The auto-setup calibrated mic utilizes a 7 band parametric eq for each output channel. The computer picks the center frequency, the width of the band, and the cut/boost. THEN the user can either accept those settings or apparently use a three band (lo,mid,hi) graphic eq. I haven't pushed enough buttons to find this yet. WIsh you could use both together, ie let the computer set the response to 'flat' given speaker placement and room acoustics, then let the use make fine tune adjustments. As an old PA guy, I just can't leave the knobs alone!

Maybe it's just me, but were'nt the old-style analog controls nice where you just pushed a slider and could see where it was at a glance? I realize the motor-driven volume controls are geared for the user using the remote, but it's so weird turning on my receiver and giving the volume knob about three serious cranks clockwise to hear normal volume. In the 'olden' days, I had a 2x10 graphic eq hooked up the main in/out loop on the Yammie 850 for the Cornwalls. I don't think there's a room out there (ok, maybe Artto's) where even a Klipsch speaker sounds 'flat' right out of the box.

[jt1stcav]

Currently, my linestage preamp only has a 23-step attenuator and a selector switch. But there are times when I do miss tone controls and a balance knob. My big Carver C-4000 had seperate left and right bass and treble controls for each channel that occassionally came in handy for problematic or poorly recorded music.

Personally, I dislike the snobby attitude some high-end manuafacturers have concerning the lack of tone/balance controls (real audiophiles don't use 'em, for it degrades overall sound quality, etc.)...Granted on cheap consumer models that may be true, which is why I have much respect for the McIntosh brand. There's a highly regarded audiophile manufacturer that as far as I know still implement sophisticated parametric-like equalization throughout the frequency range on their preamps and control consoles (and their customers aren't afraid to use 'em, either)! But in the end (as has been mentioned here already), it's all about what we hear and like best...some are completely satisfied fiddling with tone controls (when used sparingly), and others live quite happily without them. Either way, that's cool by me.

Now, if you have a graphic equalizer with both channel's bands shaped like a huge smile, and all your bass and treble controls maxed out as far to the right as they will go, then you have some serious hearing problems IMO!

[thebes]

Now this has been a very informative post. First I never even knew they made gear without adjustment knobs, I guess that puts me firmly in the world of low to mid-fi. I guess originally I was just trying to determine if I'd lose something by fiddling with the knobs, and I'm definetly to lazy to play with them all the time, only ocassionaly when a particular cd doesn't sound right.

Very interesting the way different folks approach the whole of issue of getting the sound right.

Thanks!

[Cleve]

You said "knobs" uhuhuhuhuhuhuh!

[IndyKlipschFan]

I will get killed on this but with the pro la scalas, I have 2 pairs, I liked em... But, I really LOVE THEM with this in the lineup too. http://www.dbxpro.com/2231.htm

I know, I know, but you can really find some bottom end.. Also fine tune to your room the high end just a scrunch too. At Sam Ash music stores, about 475 dollars..

Never, never, skimp on an EQ. It will give you noise and headaches. This is a pro model will last forever and I trust give you the most control ever you have ever had in 31 band, Stereo, EQ. (Also type III DBX noise reduction too.)

My unltimate goal in the HT/Karaoke room, was to have the karaoke speakers sound like a "high end stereo speakers" on steroids for PA. For those that have heard this set up I am pretty sure I have accomplished that too.

OK, you can begin to slam me here...

[NOSValves]

Slam, Slam, Slam LOL !!!