Tube question again (no flame wars allowed )

[Coytee]

Ok.. I've been trying to read archives about tubes and I keep running into "horns love tubes" or the equivilant of.

Ok, when ever I've seen that, generally it's regarding K-horns. Does that general statement apply to Lascalas too?

(got a pair of Las)

I'm in process of obtaining my first pair of K-horns in 2 weeks and will initially be hooking them up to my old Yammie Cr2040 (120/ch).

I'm intrigued about tubes but bluntly, am ignorant of them.

So, couple general questions:

1. Are tubes considered EQUIVALANTLY better for LaScalas too?

2. If I do a HT setup, would I need 3 tube amps? (2x2 and 1x1?) for a 5.1 setup?

3. What is better, push pull, triode, what are differences, why, how, when, where? If I have a CD, DVD, VCR, tuner, sat/tv, how do I incorporate all those into tube amps?

4. Can I use my yamaha pre-outs and drive that into tube power amps?

5. Where does one go to look at/purchase tube stuff? (not aware of anything here in knoxville, but again, I've admitted my ignorance)

6. I tend to listen to 70's rock, instrumental (piano). When I turn it up, I love for it to thump. Will a tube have more/less/same thump as my yamaha?

I sit here and try to think of semi-intelligent questions about tubes, but realize how little I know.

Is there a "Tubes for Dummies" kinda thing I can read?

tia

[kuisis]

As a lascala owner I can only say that in my opinion tubes work better than ss. I started with a sherwood, bought a HK730 then two scott amps. The 730 has the most bass, but overall the scotts, a 222c and 233, sound more lively.

I didn't think there would be much difference between the 730 and 222 but was suprised.

[AnalOg]

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On 11/8/2004 2:53:02 PM Coytee wrote:

Ok.. I've been trying to read archives about tubes and I keep running into "horns love tubes" or the equivilant of.

Ok, when ever I've seen that, generally it's regarding K-horns. Does that general statement apply to Lascalas too?

(got a pair of Las)

I'm in process of obtaining my first pair of K-horns in 2 weeks and will initially be hooking them up to my old Yammie Cr2040 (120/ch).

I'm intrigued about tubes but bluntly, am ignorant of them.

So, couple general questions:

1. Are tubes considered EQUIVALANTLY better for LaScalas too?

YES, I own a pair of Lascala's myself, they are fully horn loaded & love tubes.

2. If I do a HT setup, would I need 3 tube amps? (2x2 and 1x1?) for a 5.1 setup?

Yes, 3 tube amps would suffice. A pushpull design would be your best bet as it has more wattage to handle those demanding HT apps.

3. What is better, push pull, triode, what are differences, why, how, when, where?

If I have a CD, DVD, VCR, tuner, sat/tv, how do I incorporate all those into tube amps?

Better is a matter of flavor & how load ya like it. Yo hook up your sources to the pre & use the pre outs to your amps.

4. Can I use my yamaha pre-outs and drive that into tube power amps?

Answered above.

5. Where does one go to look at/purchase tube stuff? (not aware of anything here in knoxville, but again, I've admitted my ignorance)

The internet is the only viable source I'm aware of. The retail shops carry mostly SS gear.

6. I tend to listen to 70's rock, instrumental (piano). When I turn it up, I love for it to thump. Will a tube have more/less/same thump as my yamaha?

Again, using a push pull design with 60 watts or more will be more than enough for Klipsch speakers. I have my Mark III's strapped in triode mode which brings them down to about 35 watts and they do not run out of steam at hi volumes.

I hope this addressed all your questions, I'm sure if I left anything out some other forum members will chime in.

Have fun with it!!

Tom

I sit here and try to think of semi-intelligent questions about tubes, but realize how little I know.

Is there a "Tubes for Dummies" kinda thing I can read?

tia

----------------

[rtaylor]

The McIntosh dealer in Knoxville will sell you some Mac tube gear.Tom is the owners name and he owns some that he uses personally. You can try calling him and seeing if he'll bring them in for you to listen to. I don't believe he has any on the floor right now. Have his number at work but not here at home. Randy

[Coytee]

Rtaylor, I see by profile you are in cincy. I was born and raised in Hamilton . Gotta love Graeters

As you mention it, long long ago, I was at a place that sells Mcintosh locally... I think their name is Statement Audio??

I'll have to check them out in couple weeks, after I get my new K-horns , and ya baby... I can hardly wait.

Still wish there was more of a localized education on tube stuff I'm the anal type that likes to try to get educated as much as I can before heading out into public. Indeed, in the past as I've bought stuff, I've found I usually knew more than the salesperson. Sadly, regarding tubes, that ain't gonna happen.

[cjgeraci]

I agree with virtually everything that RF3iicrazy said. Both my 35 watt Marantz and my 60 watt Mark IIIs have enough power as PP amps to drive Klipsch speakers to high volume levels.

The only interesting question is the powering of your center speaker in HT mode. Normally, with movies and such, the center's output during certain passages requires alot from an amp. I assuming that a PP monoblock such as my Mark III could probably handle those requirements. However, since I only have tube amps to run 4 out of 5 of my speakers, I am still running my Rotel multichannel amp to handle my center chores(in the meantime). Is anyone out there running a tube amp for their center for HT as well as music, and if so, does it handle the most demanding passages? If not, would a SS amp, just for the center, give you more flexibility/headroom for demanding dialogue, etc.??

I'm sure a tube amp for HT/music (center) probably works, but it would be nice to hear from those who use one to drive a center.

Carl.

[mikebse2a3]

Hi Coytee

good to see another local person on the forum and glad to see your getting the Khorns.

Your right the McIntosh dealer in Knoxville is Statement Audio

you can go to their webb site www.statementaudio.com and click on their links (Audio Refurbishers) and you will see some used McIntosh equipment for sale.

Are you happy with the amp your running with the lascala?

good tube amps are great with Khorns/Lascala/Belle Klipsch

but I would also be open to solid state amps also (I remember a little nad3020 playing on Khorns creating wonderfull sound)

and if rock was what I mostly played and for home theater purposes also I believe I would want an amp that could put out at least 20w to 60w. for a medium size room.

Anyway enjoy the search and hopefully you can try a variety of amps to see what fits your taste and needs best.

mike

[D-MAN]

I've been reading that lower power tube amps sound particularily good on horns because horns in general present a "more stable" reactance to the amplifier.

The variations of impedance are lessened significantly by horn loading.

Tubes (low current amplifiers) tend to like this "horn effect" better than the high current amplifiers, which tend to be solid state.

This may account for the commonly accepted saying that "tubes love horns" and not the other way around.

DM

[D-MAN]

Forgot to answer your questions.

1) you can definitely power the tube amps from the pre-outs of the Yammie. If I were you, I would run the mains pre-outs to a stereo preamp and from there to the tube amps. This allows for a better preamp to be in the signal chain. I'm not currently running tube gear, but that's my setup for serious stereo listening. For HT, the center and rears are powered of the receiver, and the stereo gear is also on for the mains. Best of both worlds.

2) generally, low power tube gear is in the triode or single pentode topology. Push-pull design (2 or more triodes or pentodes in the output stage) allows for higher wattages, less distortion and typically uses negative feedback to acheive a wide frequency response with lower distortion, although that depends on the class of operation employed. SET (single-ended-triode) operation also typically uses no negative feedback which some prefer, although that also depends on the class design employed. Tube heads may correct this, but I think that its at least close. SET's are typically low power, PP designs are higher power. Distortion and frequency response is dependent on the design employed, respectively.

3) any or all of the tube gear in question would depend on your listening tastes and desired SPL values. If you listen exclusively to rock, then IMO, SET designs are not what you need. OTOH, if you only want to listen to HT soundtrack material, then SS (higher wattage) would be more to your liking. I would not recommend tube gear for exclusive HT use, but that's MO, of course. I would think that for a mix of stereo and HT use, mid-level wattage (60-100) watts per channel tube gear would work for you.

Bear in mind that there is a world of other opinions out there, and this is only one of millions.

DM

[D-MAN]

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On 11/8/2004 7:43:21 PM D-MAN wrote:

Tubes (low current amplifiers) tend to like this "horn effect" better than the high current amplifiers, which tend to be solid state.

----------------

I should clarify this a bit. The higher current amplifier performance depends less on the variability of the speaker impedance as it has higher current available to counteract the effect. It therefore has a greater ability to be less effected by impedance variations presented by the load.

The lower current tube amps are more susceptable to variation of impedance presented by non-horn speakers.

[maxg]

As follows:

"1. Are tubes considered EQUIVALANTLY better for LaScalas too?"

Very much so - on this forum at least. As with all things audio much comes down to personal taste. Buying blind in dangerous - better to audition a few options - even if that means some travel.

"2. If I do a HT setup, would I need 3 tube amps? (2x2 and 1x1?) for a 5.1 setup?"

Depends on what you want to achieve. The benefit of a surround sound tube setup, IMHO is fairly minimal if you are going to be watching movies primarily and want the bang boom of a mega sub and bullets / helicopters flying over your head.

What is much more common, for people who use a single system for both music and HT is to have a pair of tube amps for stereo sound and leave the rest of the surround speakers directly connected to the surround sound receiver for movies.

Obviously if you want to have full surround sound music on one of the hi-res formats (DVDa or SACD) then this situation may change.

"3. What is better, push pull, triode, what are differences, why, how, when, where? If I have a CD, DVD, VCR, tuner, sat/tv, how do I incorporate all those into tube amps?"

What is better is, as I said before, a matter of personal preference and listening habits. If you want to listen to Heavy metal at 100 dB plus in a large room then SET (single ended triode) is probably not for you. If you are into quieter listening, as say 85 dB with peaks around 90-95 in a smallist room then a SET amp with a measely 3.5 watts may well do the trick.

Push pull is something of a halfway house between SET and SS in some ways. Generally they are more powerful (10-100 wpc) and will go as loud as you want.

Incorporating all your sources into the amps is a matter for your pre-amp. This could be your existing Yamaha, or a dedicated pre-amp with pass through for HT.

"4. Can I use my yamaha pre-outs and drive that into tube power amps?"

You could. I have no idea how good it will sound.

An alternative is to get a dedicated pre-amp, maybe a tube one, that will allow pass through for you HT. This is the best of both world's scenario.

Very few surround sound amps and pre-amps produce comparible quality of music to a dedicated pre-amp, power-amp setup IMHO. The only one I have heard that does is the Primare - but I do not even know if that is available in the US. That unit has a built in bypass feature that turns all the processing off and results in excellent 2 channel sound.

"5. Where does one go to look at/purchase tube stuff? (not aware of anything here in knoxville, but again, I've admitted my ignorance)"

Hunt. They are out there - somewhere...

[edwinr]

I reckon tubes and horns go together very well. Whether it's PP, SET or other, it's a matter for yourself - it depends on room size and how loud you listen. Even a few watts will drive the LaScala's quite loudly. Whether you can get enough power at the frequency extremes with low powered tubes is another matter.

I like the idea of a solid state surround sound receiver to drive the center and rears, and a subwoofer if you want one. To drive the LaScala's I prefer the option of a good quality tube amplifier. This could be either a power or an integrated. This amplifier could be driven from the receiver preouts. In the case of an integrated amp, the volume control needs to by set at a nominal level (equivalent to 0db) to match the level with the other channels driven by the receiver.

[Chris Robinson]

I use a Denon AVR4800 for 5.1 duties in the home. I have Cornwall fronts, a Belle center, and Heresy surrounds.

In a separate room, I have tube SET amps and tube pre-amp driving Klipschorns, putting out a massive 3W of music power. These little guys are enough to drive the Klipschorns comfortably at my normal 85-90 db listening levels.

My original plan for the 5.1 environment was to use two 40W Push-Pull amps to drive the fronts and rears (one stereo amp for each pair) and I used this arrangement for about two years. The amps were driven off the Denon pre-amp out connections. I liked this arrangement but dealt with heat issues; the tube amps put off a serious amount of heat. Ultimately, one of my amps needed service, so I pulled both tube amps from the rack for calibration and check ups, and then ran the 5.1 rig off the internal Denon amps.

Funny thing happened ... I couldn't tell any difference between the internal SS amps of the Denon and the tube amps that were in there. So I sold the two tube amps and have been running the Denon since. I'm a happy guy right now.

The conclusion I drew from that experience are two-fold:

(1) For normal HT and rock music at heavy decibel levels, the solid state arrangement works very well. At the higher output levels, the distortion off the solid state amps is leveling off and sounds pretty good.

(2) The pre-amp in the Denon really determined the quality of the sound coming out of the tube amps. What goes into the amp comes out amplified. I think one really ought to focus on the quality of the pre-amp/processor first, and then examine the quality of the amplification. For the most part, decent A/V receivers have pretty good amp sections (such as Denon, Outlaw, etc.)

For my next home, I'll combine the HT and Listening Room environment with Klipschorns up front, the Belle in the center, and Cornwalls on the sides and rears. I'll run them off of a good pre- and amp like the Aragon or McIntosh. As a twist, though, I'll include my SET amps and tube pre-amp in the rack, and switch those into duty on the Klipschorns by using my Niles DPS1 amp selector. This convenient little box keeps you from having to change the wire connections on your speakers when you change amps. I don't know of too many other ways to handle that same switching function. Many of the guys on this forum use it as well.

Bottom line: my recommendation is to go quality solid state in the pre-amp/sound processor as a start, then address the amplification as budget permits. I also think SET is not for you if you choose to go tubes. A refurbed Scott is a great amp. NOSValves on this forum has revived many 222's and 299's for members on this board, myself included.

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[minn_male42]

horns do love tubes.....

but they also love other "quality" amplifiers.... someone above touched on it briefly by mentioning NAD amps.....

almost ANY separate amplifier will sound much better than your old yamaha.... one of the beautiful things about our efficient klipsch speakers is that differences between amplifiers are very audible....

i use a carver professional ZR1000 digital amplifier with my KLF-30's.... the digital amp has many of the advantages of the "tube" sound yet with much more controlled and powerful bass.... additionally, the level of detail and clarity is simply incredible - to a level i've never heard with any tube amp - either in my system or in the showroom.....

and on music with extreme dynamics....like the SACD telarc version of the 1812 overture.... all 225 watts per channel are used on the cannon blasts... something no tube amp that i am aware of could ever reproduce accurately......

most importantly - listen for yourself - get a pp tube amp in the 30 watt range.... you might need to "buy and try" from ebay or audiogon.... but you can always turn around and sell it if it doesn't live up to your expectations....

good luck in your search!

[oscarsear]

I use a little Cary (SLI-80) triode tube amp for my horns. Having no adjustment for treble or bass I vary performance by using different brand/age tubes and adjusting power tube bias (within boundaries). The system breathes with the music. It's fuller and the sound stage very discernable. The bass can part your hair.

In my opinion tubes have more character than SS. That said you need to find tube product whose character meets your listening and budget expectations. Finding the opportunity to preview various products is the true crunch. Best of luck.

[seti]

You can always watch the classifieds @ www.audiogon.com and buy and sell different amps until you find what you really like. There are other amps I would like to add to my aresenal as I do not see myself parting with my 16watts of 300b's. I think SET deserves a listen to as well as some pp amps. Why limit yourself hear it all then decide. I would really like to hear some airtight \ quad forty \ macintosch \ vac \ ArtAudio \ BAT amps but there is not a good audio shop anywhere close to here.

Examine the build quality as I have heard some DIY amps that seemed to be held together by little less than a prayer that sounded dreadful. I have canary audio and george wright gear that is very well made and can recommend but when you see well made gear you can just tell sort of like sitting in that Mercedes. If you have questions about a certain brand members of this forum are great because chances are someone here has probably heard and taken it apart LOL. I also tend to listen to the people that actually listen to the gear not just those that sell and review it so you might want to catch some of the threads at www.audioasylum.com .

Good Luck

[dodger]

You asked about the McIntosh Dealer in Knoxville. Yes, it is Statement and Tom is the owner.

For repairs he uses Terry DeWick.

I owned 2 pair of LaScalas. They loved my McIntosh 60s, but that much power is not needed on 2 channel. They also loved my Yamaha CR-1000 Solid State.

For reasons, they liked the 4 ohm tap. They also like to be positioned. If they do not sound quite right OR if they do not have what we who were in out teens or 20s in the '70s adequate bass, try slight changes. Mine liked corners, but not set too far in. Read my sig for factors that affect acoustics.

Most of your questions have been MORE than adequately responded to. All that answered know their stuff. I will not be redundant. I post coming from a LaScala owner's viewpoint and knowing Tom as I have purchased a museum quality McIntosh MX-110 and a McIntosh 2120 Amplifier from him. I know several others who have purchased from Tom and been more than satisfied.

dodger

[D-MAN]

I gotta correct everybody (and if you believe that, I got a bridge that I'd like to sell you!)...

Tubes love horns, not horns love tubes! Horns don't care!

A good set of horns loves everything of QUALITY thrown at them, and this includes solid-state...

A good set of horns will not make inferior equipment sound better than it is, they will make them sound EXACTLY like what quality it is. That ain't exactly "love" in that case...

DM