Here's the tough question about imaging...

[Coytee]

Most/all of us have had an experience with our Khorns (new thread on LaScallas) or others that just disappear and the performers are in the room with us.

Myself have only experienced a tease of this and that's why I started the "listing 2A3 amp thread"...

Ok, here's the tough question

We're all so amazed how the (enter Klipsch model) vanishes and the performers appear before us.

Are there OTHER brands of speakers that will do this same thing, to the same degree...indeed, perhaps even better?

My point, We're all Klipschaholics and obviously are bias to that which we own. Are we willing to accept that different brands might do the SAME? If so, what might those be?

[edwinr]

Good question. It's hard to beat the Klipschorns for that pinpoint imaging if you sit right in the sweet spot. For a lot more money, Wilson Audio pride themselves on their holographic imaging.

[Woodog]

Oh yes, there certainly are! I went to an audio dealership in March and listened to some Totem Manis. Smallish speakers that did the same thing. They were about $5000, I think, and were about 82db efficient.

side note - I always feel wierd about quoting numbers around this group because one of you knows the exact numbers... so if you are that person, please correct me!

The total cost of the setup there was around 10,000.

They did sound awfully good, but I was glad to get back to my Kipsch.

Forrest

[leok]

Most speakers can be made to do the disappearing act by driving them in such a way that they don't distort, with audio that is not itself distorted. Very inexpensive and bandwidth limited systems can do this as long as they are used within their limitations. It's easy to get good imaging if your sound has little dynamic change and frequencies from 100Hz to 10KHz.

What gets difficult is expanding this trick to a system with wide frequency and dynamic capability. Literally, this more demanding system gets itself into trouble. Intermodulation distortion causes instruments to seem to break up, with images of themselves appearing at different locations between the speakers. Low power noise and distortion obscures low amplitude reverberation and echoes that we use to reinforce our sense of instrument location.

It's not as much a case of which speakers can or can't do the imaging trick, and more a question of whether or not they are used in such a way that the trick works.

Leo

[minn_male42]

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On 5/1/2005 8:37:51 AM leok wrote:

Most speakers can be made to do the disappearing act by driving them in such a way that they don't distort, with audio that is not itself distorted. Very inexpensive and bandwidth limited systems can do this as long as they are used within their limitations. It's easy to get good imaging if your sound has little dynamic change and frequencies from 100Hz to 10KHz.

What gets difficult is expanding this trick to a system with wide frequency and dynamic capability. Literally, this more demanding system gets itself into trouble.

Intermodulation distortion causes instruments to seem to break up, with images of themselves appearing at different locations between the speakers. Low power noise and distortion obscures low amplitude reverberation and echoes that we use to reinforce our sense of instrument location.

It's not as much a case of which speakers can or can't do the imaging trick, and more a question of whether or not they are used in such a way that the trick works.

Leo

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exactly on point!!!

if you visit other forums, this topic comes up occassionally..... and nearly every system that people suggest as having "great imaging" has little or no dynamic range compared to any klipsch speaker

music without dynamics is not music............. and a speaker can have great imaging at low levels and a perfectly flat frequecy response, but unless it can handle the dynamics of real music - it will always be a POS speaker in my humble opinion

[JJkizak]

If you want to have an orgiastic imaging experience try this:

1...Get two 360 degree microphones 50 to 15khz and place them 2.5 ft in front of each k-horn even and centered with the midrange horn. You cannot use directional mics.

2...Run the mics to any recording device available.

3...Do something in the room, party, yell scream, run around chasing women, play games, argue, whatever. Make sure you are in different positions in the room while performing.

4...When you have completed your histronics play them back on the recorder through the k-horns at sufficient volume and be prepared to crap your pants. The imaging will not only be perfect it will be in the correct spot no matter where you move to listen. Why does this work? Because all of the room dimensions and materials and furniture placement and windows and doors and rugs are phased to perfection. Unfortunately no one has figured out how to do this with pre-recorded music. I did this in 1969 with two Shure microphones and an Ampex reel to reel. It was the most awesome imaging experience I have ever heard.

JJK

[hurdy_gurdyman]

I've heard the speakers completely disappearing act with a pair of Decware Radials and a pair of Hornshoppe The Horns. Both speakers were powered by SETs at room filling, but not LOUD, levels. You could not tell where the music originated from anywhere near the listening seat with either speakers. The speakers just vanished. It was a rather enlightening experience. I've never been able to get any of my speakers, including the Heresys I had, to just vanish like that, although I've been able to get better dynamics and play louder with my own rigs.

Also heard some prototype open baffle speakers called Mini-Planers from Hawthorne Audio that also did a disappearing act quite well.

Dave

[Painful Reality]

Khorns do disapear but imaging is not their strong point.

Any loudspeaker will have compromise. Holographic imaging is one with the khorns. And in a way, who cares, khorns are at their best with live recording where pinpoint imaging is not really important. I never saw a live performance where I could notice "pinpoint imaging".

Most decent monimonitor, full range drivers, TL line speakers, properly set-up will leave the khorns in their starting block regarding imaging.

[jdm56]

Very good point about live music! I've noticed that so many times. Of course, live music is usually heard in much larger rooms and at much greater distances than the normal home set-up. I think that accounts for a lot of it.

I always felt k-horns had very good lateral image placement, but not so accurate image size. The center image always seemed bigger than hard left or right "images".

Also, I've never heard ANY mono-polar speaker that maintained any image specificity if you moved out of the sweet spot! I've always felt you had to go to an omni-directional, or at least a dipolar speaker to get that kind of effect. Of course, that's just me.

I think where corner-horns fall down hard is in image depth and three dimensionality. They pretty much don't have any. That's the main reason I went to B&W - oodles of depth and life-like three-dimensionality.

A lot may depend on the type of music you listen to. Amped music plays to klipsch's strengths, where acoustic music doesn't so much. But still, even amped music is usually heard in much larger environments and at greater distances than at home, which will introduce a lot more room sound into the mix. That may explain why I like the broader dispersion of the B&W's even for rock music, in spite of the fact the little brits can't equal the sheer output of klipsch.

[richieb]

I have experienced the best imaging to date with a 60 WPC Redgum MOSFET integrated, with both Cornwalls and Belles. Bested my Cayin EL-34 integrated w/ TAD pre-amp and highly regarded Unison Research tube integrated. This current set-up, Redgum/Belles, is so satisfying it has seemingly cured my constant uphill battle with upgradeitis, a sickness cured only with an empty bank acount or great sounding system. I now only look for fun as I sit peacefully and listen.

[PrestonTom]

The imaging issue is a tricky one. I have K-Horns that are fairly well set up (in corners along the long wall, listening spot at the on-axis position, and a center channel (L+R)). Even in this configuration (which can still be tweaked) the imaging is not perfect and the K-Horns do not disappear (and certainly the image lacks any depth). My experience is not uncommon. The closest I have come is when I have used panel speakers (Maggies and esp Martin Logans). However, they have their own set of headaches and tweakings when it comes to room placement. However, with a well-recorded source, you can come close to hearing the "sound" rather than hearing the "sound coming from two boxes" (and the in between locations).

It is difficult! Although I love the K-Horns, I do not really think I will come close to this expereince with the horns. This is just my honest opinion, if others have come close, then more power to you. More importantly what is your secret?

-Tom

[Ray Garrison]

The absolute best speakers I have ever heard in the "disappear and have you leaning forward into the music until you fall out of your chair" department were the original B&W 801F monitors, circa 1985 or so. I had a pair of these for a few years, and I have never, ever heard any other speakers that could just so totally convince me that I was someplace else, in a big, open space, listening to music...

Unfortunately, they simply couldn't handle high SPL's or really dynamic music. I went through a bunch of amps, wound up using a pair of Adcom GFA-555's bridged into mono (about 600 watts/channel or so into that load) (and didn't sound as good as other, lower powered amps, like the B&K ST-140 I'd started with, but at least they'd play loud). Even with that, the speakers were constricted during really dynamic passages, and if I turned them up to what I considered partying fun but not outrageous levels, the protection circuits would TURN THEM OFF. I finally gave up.

The La Scalas I wound up with, in all honesty, weren't even close in the make you feel like you're there creating the sonic illusion / imaging / soundstaging department, but I found that for me, life like dynamics trump life like imaging.

[jdm56]

I don't really notice a difference in the dynamics of my B&W 703's compared to the k-horns I had before. I know the k-horns are capable of much greater dynamic range, but with my music, played back at the levels I generally listen at, I guess the dynamic range of the B&W's is enough. Even with my best recordings, since I rarely exceed 95-100dB, I've noticed no clipping, compression or glare. And I've had no reliability issues. Of course, my room isn't too big, and I'm a geezer, so I'm sure those are factors!

[snilsen13]

I haven't heard anyt Klipsch bt my Cornwalls. But I once had Green Mounntain Audio Europas. Those threw up wall of sound so thick it was like having your eyes closed even when they were open. Disappearing was what they did best, but they were doing it near 87dB/W/m and I couldn't afford to properly amplify them. Good speakers though.

A friend with a bigger budget uses PSB Gold i speakers through a Bryston or 300Bs. The soundstage is huge.

Someday I'll find some Khorns and get blown away, but for now the cornies do the job but they hardly disappear. I've moved those things friggan everywhere but the best place to hear how they disappear is to be where I can't see them and listen to the amazing reflections. I wonder if these speakers can be made to disappear without reflections...

[Colin]

So strange is this world we live in that I find myself disagreeing with Ray Garrison, from whom I have learned so much over the years, and yet seconding the opinion of JDMN, with whom I never agree.

While I can agree that when B&W 801s are driven by monster amps that can handle their low and sharp impedance swings, they are some of the best speakers I have ever heard, constant directivity horns create better images, easier and for less system expense, than even superb conventional cone radiator drivers.

As usual, when discussing cones versus horns, I believe the best practices of conventional (cone) wisdom does not apply. Cones image best in a stereo system when placed 3 to 4 feet away from similar front and side walls, the listener equidistant from the speakers and the side and back walls, with a slight toe-in, so the drivers point beyond the listeners ears. The listener sits within a triangle of the 3D sonic holograph. Ideally, the sound wraps around the listener so well, that sounds can be located directly to the left and right of the listener (although I have heard this done really well only once).

Horns however, image easier than cones. Simply point the driver directly at the listeners ear, or slightly behind it. While they too should ideally be placed away from similar front and sidewalls, this is not as crucial to imaging as it with cones (although it remains important for the bass). With horns, the listener does not have to be equidistant from the speakers and the side and back walls. The listener sits at the apex of an isosceles triangle. Although I cant say I have ever heard horns do a wonderfully job of wrapping around the listener on all three sides. Proper imaging is found with distances up to twice the space between the speakers, sometimes more.

I will confess that with Khorns, the soundstage is wide and shallow, making the illusory placement of instruments rather broad and this takes some getting used to. But the pinpoint accuracy of the lead singers voice and position, along with the clarity, dynamics and smooth response of Khorns, adds greatly to the sonic illusion and more that makes up for this effect.

[psg]

Great post Colin!

[3dzapper]

"Holographic imaging is one with the khorns."

"with Khorns, the soundstage is wide and shallow, making the illusory placement of instruments rather broad and this takes some getting used to"

Jeff, Colin, Those statements are not necessesarily true. I find that the depth of the soundstage is software, source and amp dependent. I have listened to the Khorns with amps that cause the soundstage to be absolutely flat like a wall. Others that present a deeper more stagelike sound front and a couple that fill the room with hologramic image.

I have been auditioning a pair of Wright SET amps that Daddy Dee has so graciously loaned me. As part of the comparison I hooked up the Wright Mono 10s last night. My reference albums for the auditions are Santana's "Abraxas" and Peter, Paul and Mary's album of the same name.

The opening instrumental on Abraxas, which is a "head" album, is a model for audio producers. Except for one small HF glitch in the left channel about 30 seconds in it is perfect. Carlos Santana is a master of the overdriven tube guitar amp and perfectly captures the sound on this LP.

In the middle of the cut there are "flying cymbals". These cymbals were flying throught the room, over my head, behind me, swirling across the sky from left to right around and around. That is how Carlos recorded them. Do cymbals or pigs fly in real life? No, of course not. But, here the swirling cymbals are used as a mind trip.

The rest of the instruments from the overdriven Hammond B3 through Carlos' guitar to the drums on the right and wood blocks emminating from the fireplace eight feet up the right wall from the Khorn. Congas and bongos spaced throught and a superb bass line behind it all is a sonic masterpiece captured and presented perfectly by my Klipschorns.

It was delicious!

Rick

[Mallette]

JJK: I am going to try your experiment. Makes absolutely perfect sense. My own "Virtual Presense" technology attempts to approach (but could never duplicate) such a soundfield by using inversely proportional record/playback strategy to overcome room issues in as much as possible.

As to cheap imaging thrills, I am having them now. Hooked up 4 matched RS LS-5's to my digital Panasonic reciever just yesterday. Excellent imaging from almost anyplace in the room due to the 360 degree dispersion of the Lineaum drivers. The are not remotely as accurate as the Frazier's I was using (front only), but the imaging almost makes up for it. Certainly worth 75.00 a piece!

Much better is 4 matched Frazier Super Monte Carlo's (at perhaps 150.00 for all 4 on Ebay). Imaging is pinpoint whether 2 or 4 channel, but in both cases very limited to a sweet spot.

Anyway, can't wait to try the recording experiment next trip home. For a slight variation, I will use PZM's mounted flat on the mid horn grill...can't get any closer to record source/playback source than that!

Dave

[sunnysal]

I have heard both cone and horn speakers image like crazy, I feel it has more to do with the room and the set up than anything else. My klipschorns throw a soundstage that is just marvelous, I can "see" where each musician stands on stage, not too much depth though...

two-way minimonitors do seem to dissapear quite easily however this may have more to do with the visual size and fewer drivers than anything else, I also find single driver speakers to dissapear quite well.

the worst imaging speakers I had in my system were my magnepan SMGcs...I am not sure why, the sounded fabulous and presented a decent sound stgae left to right, but had zero depth and tended to draw my attention to the speaker, they may sound better in other rooms...

regards, tony

[D-MAN]

There is not going to be any hard and fast rules on this one; but this subject is WHY I LOVE HORNS and got rid of my KEFS in the first place. All opinion, and NO facts, that's the way I like it!

As far as the sweetspot, a wide sweetspot is good for HT work, but then, there are other speakers to do that; that's why its multi-channel! So I am speaking only of stereo imaging and soundstage which by definition has a narrower sweetspot. If the sweetspot is ill-defined, then so is the soundstage. No way around that. But the issue is how holographic the soundstage is FROM the sweetspot.

I think that ONCE you have got the signal(s) that define the overall depth and soundstage getting to the speakers, (and THAT is certainly up in the air in some cases), the problem becomes getting a unified wavefront coming at the listening position in a coherent manner. That's up to the room.

I personally think that ONE of the Khorns imaging problems is the fixed 45 deg. top cabinet. Like the previously state point of turning the horns toward or slightly behind the listening position, the imaging will be more precise.

I think that while the 45 deg. fixed position LOOKS NICE, it is definitely NOT OPTIMUM for good sound, that's for sure. It is basically off-axis to the listening position, and on-axis (at least more approximately) is better for the most part.

So what limits the depth and soundstage? first the obvious problem of recording, then the electronics, then the speakers (I'll leave out the issues of wiring as they remain too controversial), then the room. The part you end up REALLY hearing (or not) is the ROOM itself.

I would say that because some speakers, due to their PLACEMENT in said room have certain attributes that come into play in propogating the smaller signals that define the soundstage. Some (should I say ALL or MOST?) of these tend to make the soundstage small (at least the size of the distance between the speakers). After getting horns, these no longer offer any interest for me...

The issue of horns imaging well is, in my experience, determined on the geometry involved. If the horns are indirect, then the soundstage is going to be "indirect" to a degree. I have the horns splayed more directly toward the listening position than a 45 deg. angle. That's the first change I would make - regardless of PWK's thoughts on the matter.

The second issue is that the room MUST be treated to prevent excessive distortion from reflections, which confuses the soundstage especially phasing, as elegantly stated previously about the recording and playback in the same space.

The third issue I would address is that once one is intent on listening and determining the small signals as it pertains to soundstaging, one should explore the issues of different wire types and lengths (Ooops! I did it anyway).

I would say this concerning depth from a fully-loaded horn setup, the dimensions of the room should NOT be apparent at all. That's where you want to go, that's what you want to hear. Removing all of the listening space colorations is quite a task, easiest in larger spaces, but somewhat doable with certain treatments. Unfortunately, they are expensive, and can be a difficult task when achieving a acceptable appearance in some cases, like a living room, etc.

If there is one over-riding aspect of my setup (I'm NOT bragging!) is that the sense of depth is the first and foremost thing that I would attribute to it. In the dark, there IS NO WALL in front of you. Now the SIDES are a slightly different matter, but so far, I've got the front pretty much handled.

I am not real suprised that Khorns would be regarded as having a fairly flat soundstage, but they don't really. Turn the top cabs, but doing so may cause you to need some room treatments to compensate.

My system is not that far removed from real KHorns, same height, width, woofers, etc., so don't discard this as being completely irrelevant.

I had a pair of KEFS that image quite well, but they really cannot stand up in any sense to the corner horns. I can never be happy seriously listening to the KEF's ever again, literally. Add the dynamics of horns to a deep, lushious soundstage and the KEFs are just wimpy, small footprint tower speaker like all the rest. What a waste of money. Might be good for apartments, though...

DM