Carver Amps and Klipschorns?

[PrestonTom]

I confess I have a bit of the upgrade fever right now. I am currenrtly using a Hafler amp with my K-Horns. There are so many neat solid state amps from my youth that are now reasonably priced that I am interested in sampling some of them (NAD, Rotel, Luxman, Adcom, Onkyo, HK, Phase Linear, Marantz, etc) .

To start with, are any folks also using Carver TFM models, or the Phase Linear versions, or Hafler amps with K-Horns. What are your impressions? I am not interested in enormous amounts of power but rather in a wonderful sound.

Some of the equipment I have tried has suffered because they were not sufficietly clean. The K-Horn's efficiency make the noise, hiss and hum come through (this was the case for or the Dynaco, or at least the ones that I tried).

Your opinions are appreciated. I listen to Classical & Jazz (CDs not vinyl) at reasonable levels in a 12x19 room

Thanks in advance (I know it is a difficult question since we always focus on our "own" systems),

-Tom

[edwinr]

Upgrade fever is one kind of sickness that is good to have. I've never heard a Carver amp with Heritage. I know they'll go loud. I just wonder if they are clean enough for Klipschorns. They are very well engineered so I guess they should sound okay. I know we often talk about how loud the Klipschorn can go with just a few watts. We very rarely talk about how nice the Khorns sound with lots of watts driving them. []

[Daddy Dee]

Tom,

I used Hafler amps for years, before Klipsch. After I got a pair of

LaScalas, I found that the Haflers sounded a bit on the harsh side.

Possible it was because my gear was old, but as you mention, that first

watt has to be clean to sound right with heritage.

[kjohnsonhp]

I have used Carver with Cornwalls but the most recent data below is about a year old.

In the mid 80's the Carver and Hafler 200+ watts per channel amps were popular with Klipsch but many find that to be harsh combination today.

I have used Corns and Carver C500 for a PA system for live music in our house. I have also used a Hafler amp with the Corns for dances in our house. Perfect for college but I didn't prefer the sound today.

I prefered my hot rod Dynaco 40watt tube amp to the Carver C500 (which was an early transition design carried over from Phase Linear prior to the cube).

There was the sense of power and control in the bass but the highs were harsh.

I also tried a similar vintage Carver pre-amp which I didn't like even compared to the Outlaw 1050 AVR.

I also tried the Carver C-500 with my B&W speakers. They liked the extra power and it impoved the fullness and drive of the bass but it wasn't a great sound so I sold it for a new amp.

I have also used vintage 1960's tube amps both modified and vintage designs. I found the highly modified gear to be attractive but I don't prefer the soft stock vintage sound.

In general I have found that I prefer modern designs for both SS and tube amplification.

[PrestonTom]

Thanks for the opinions so far.

Unfortunately it is a bit difficult to describe the audio expereince with the different amps. I originally got the Hafler to drive some Magnepans (they are a tough load - inefficient and and low impedance). The Hafler did pretty well, and it seems to do okay with the K-Horns .... but not great. I have it driving the Cornwall center channel where it seems to be a better match.

The Carver TFM I have found to be clean in its output (pre-amps have been a larger source of noise, hiss, & hum). But again the sound is nothing special. Actually at the low frequencies the Hafler seemed to do a better job. At the higher frequencies, the Hafler is probably preferred. To my ears, the Carver was a bit harsher than the Hafler. The mids semed to be more accurate with the Carver.

In either case there was sufficient power / headroom so the there was no distortion or clipping.

Thanks again and I know you guys have solved this problem before (specifically: matching solid state amps that I could not afford 20-30 years ago with K-Horns).

All opinions welcome,

-Tom

[rplace]

I have had a Carver TFM-25 since new in the early 90s. Used it with KG4s and Forte II with great success. I did not find it harsh at all. Quite the opposite. I find it warm for a solid-state amp. More recently I picked up 3 more TFM-25 amps (for a total of 4) to round out my dedicated home theater. I have khorn mains. CDs, movies and multi channel music sound fantastic to me and all other that come to visit so far.
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That said my background it primarily solid-state so I have less experience with tube gear. I have recently picked up a Scott 222C and a turntable. While there is a difference neither is better or worse. I like both the sound of a good SS amp as well as tubes. I do find that rock with SS and Jazz with tubes seems to be a good way to go. That could also be because I started to get into Jazz about the same time I got the tube amp.

TFM-25s can be had all the time for about 300 bucks. You could try it and sell it if you dont like it with very little risk.

Back when I originally got my TFM I auditioned several brands in the same price range and wattage. I chose Carver.

If you find yourself in the Baltimore, MD area, give me a yell and I will give you a demo.

Good luck, Rich

[Colin]

From a previous post: Every time the name Carver appears, I just have to take a poke. There are many solid-state amps that I feel are not a good match for the super-sensitive (95 dB/w/m or more) models of Klipsch and other horn drivers. The older Carver models are some. What Carver did with class D amplifiers and small powered sub-woofers is remarkable, but his older, traditional style amps are not a good match to horns. This does not include his newer digital T class style amplifiers.

Two decades ago, I lived with a blue-gray solid-state Carver (M1.5t?) amp capable of 750-watt peaks per channel. It was capable of sustaining 350 watts RMS into an 8 ohm load with no more than 0.5% total harmonic distortion from 20 to 20,000 Hz. It pushed 600 watts per channel RMS into 8-ohms. As for the power supply, the M1.5t is regulated to charge the output stages for a brief maximum of 1200 watts. The manual warns proceed gingerly in experimenting with the joyous undistorted sound levels the M-1.5t can drive them to. Amounts of on the order available here can easily - unseat woofer voice coils, damage cone suspensions, char or fuse tweeter voice coils and even demagnetize driver motors..."!

The Carver units drove my super-sensitive walnut-oiled <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Cornwall 1s, with their B2 crossovers, like a diesel engine on a go-cart. Lots of raw power. Every once in awhile, we would tempt fate and turn up the volume in my small 100 year old New England home. The live cannon shots on Telarcs 1812 Overture smacked the floor, tickled the toes, raised dust, rattled windows, impressed teenagers and created a tsunami sound wave big enough to flatten Tokyo. You could feel it all right. Even with out a sub woofer, my Cornwalls had no problems with this unusual musical piece.

The combination of the two components however did not make music. At the low power levels that sensitive horns require, the Carver had copious amounts of THD. Carver's amps are NOT a good sounding or practical spending match with sensitive horns. I think those models were precursors to the class D and H amplifiers that power subwoofers today. The maturation of the amplifier class lead to the evolution of powered sub-woofers. Nobody is running around saying that class D or H amps are smooth enough to drive sensitive loudspeakers. But from my experience, the $35 Sonic Impact 5066 integrated class-T digital amplifier or the Red Wine Clari T digital amplifiers are good enough for movies. Just not as smooth and lush in the mid-range as tubes, when used with classic Klipsch corner Khorns and LaScalas.

The noisy THD of the Carver amp wore out my ears at normal listening levels and eventually, over a period of time listening, it lost its pleasure and "stereos" fell to the bottom of my hobby list.

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Few loudspeakers systems can take advantage of the delicacy and cohesion of low-powered tube amplifiers like the mighty Khorn. I would get a really good tube amplifier, like ASL, Wellborne or VRD and couple it to a powerful and deep sub-woofer.

[H]

[leok]

PrestonTom,

You may be used to tolerating a fair amount of distortion with the Carver and Hafler ss amps. This is because % distortion in ss designs tends to rise rapidly at lower output levels (1 Watt and less). Regardless of your normal listening levels, low power distortion has a significant impact on sound with Klipsch speakers because of their very high efficiency.

Can you try a class A ss design or a good tube amp? The results may give you some new ideas on what an "upgrade" might mean.

Leo

JPM's comment reminds me .. you might also try on of the new switching (PWM/Tripath/"digital"/etc)

[psg]

I have a Carver m4.0t on loan at home. I thought voices sounded a

tad more real with it. A friend thought acoustic guitar

sounded more real with it. This is driving KHorns, and

compared to using an h/k avr-325 receiver. But the differences

are subtle. What is not subtle is the noise floor. I can't

leave the amp pulled-in before of a very audible hiss.

[jpm]

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Few loudspeakers systems can take advantage of the delicacy and cohesion of low-powered tube amplifiers like the mighty Khorn. I would get a really good tube amplifier, like ASL, Wellborne or VRD and couple it to a powerful and deep sub-woofer.

[H]

Or just get a new Carver ZR1600 Tripath ($1000) and be very, very happy.

[Kevmosmith]

Tom,

I have used the TFM-15, which is on the lower end of the TFM amps with

Khorns, La scalas and Heresys and like it very much with all of them.

The amp is more powerful than you can take on those speakers and I

really like the sound. While it does not sound like a good

tube amp to me, it sounds somewhere between a good tube amp and a good

solid state amp with some of the benefits of both.

I have had it since new in 1990 or so and never had a problem with it and you can pick them up for a song.

I think the higher TFM's are more favorably reviewed.

Good luck,

Kevin

[PrestonTom]

I appreciate al the the interesting comments I have been getting so far.

Yes, I have been ignoring the fact that the distortion in a ss amp is not always when it is being driven at max levels. I also forgot to mention that this is strictly for music (no HT) so no sub-woofer is required - I would not want to muck up the low-freq response of the K-Horns

A number of folks have been recommending tube amps. That is natural in this sort of context. However, in my mind, I am not sold on the "tube sound" . The overall differences between a decent SS and decent tube amp are complex and varied. However, for me, I do not prefer the tube sound. This is not baiting and it is not meant to be controversial. It is simply my preference.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I have not yet refreshed the crossovers on my K-Horns (or the Cornwall center) yet. I am not convinced that the latest flavor in capacitor construction will create some acoustic magic. However, some good folks on the forum have made a reasonable argument that refreshing the caps in order to eliminate resistance that has built up over the last 24 years would be beneficial. The notion of putting a resistor in series with the drivers is pretty convincing. Perhaps I should do that first. I have held back partly out of laziness (hey, I am remodeling my kitchen right now - with no end in sight). But I have also held back because of the interesting threads regarding crossover design. Design is a complex issue with many variables and compromises. I am very tempted by a steep slope filter (for the woofer/mid) that Al K has made available. He makes some very interesting and thoughtful arguments (my cabinets currently have original AA networks) and the center is a Cornwall II (circa 1987?) .

Previously I had auditioned K-Horns driven by Luxmans and by Haflers and was blown away by the sound. That was motivated me to get some K-Horns myself back in 1996. I still love them although I do dabble with panel speakers in my other set ups.

I do appreciate everyone's perspective. I assume that I am merely going through what the rest of you went through before. I want to capitalize on your collective experience.

Thanks,

-Tom

[joessportster]

i used to have the phase linear model 400 amps hooked up to 2 pair of corns/ and i also used a pair of the amps with corns and heresys(heresy perched atop the corns), they sounded great and i was very happy with the sound and of course i thought the 200 wpc was killer also (that is untill i heard gary,s 17 watt scott 299 tube integrated) that is another story, the phase linears had what i considered good sound reproduction and very good bass, the highs were very nice on the corns and heresys when using both pair togeather as mentioned previously, however when using just the heresy's the sound was very bright. something about the mix of the heresy and cornwalls made the sound much better and not nearly as bright Joe

[rsp1068]

I recently A/B ed a TFM 24 against my Rotel RB-1080, into my RF 7's ( just for sh*ts and giggles) and the sound was much thinner, and the source was a Jolida JD100 tubed cd player which has a very emotional involving sound. The highs were high, and the bass was close, it just lost the element that draws me into the music. I have owned a few TFM's, up to the 35X, and they would be great drivnig a pair of Bose 901's, but if you are serious about you're music, there is better available for a descent price.

[Speedball]

Don't know if this reply will help but I bought a used Conrad Johnson Sonographe SA-120 a few months back to power my RF7's. The owner had used this amp on his Klipschorns for the last 10 years.

I also recently for a short time used a Carver MT500 (350watts) stereo amp for the 7's and it sounded much better than the Sonographe.

[khorn58]

you just have not lived yet until you try a Phase Linear 700 pushed with Khorns.

I would try some old Threshold amps as they are a pretty fair deal now and sound good with khorns not harsh at all.

[tillmbil]

The older B&K ST series are good for sound and very reasonable. Even older Mac gear. I have heard many times that Craver is probably not the best fit, but to each his own.

[jt1stcav]

I have used the infamous cube M-400t and the improved TFM-35x with my Cornwalls, and to me the overall sonics were quite pleasant and not overly bright or artificial (the first time I ever heard Klipschorns was back in '80; two pairs of Khorns driven by two Carver M-500t power amps in a huge music room, and I thought it was the most life-like sound I ever heard...it was quite convincing). The TFM-35x was originally intended for a pair of 86dB Magnepan MGLR1s that needed the 350 watts @ 4 ohms to drive them, so it was not my first choice when I aquired my dad's efficient Cornwalls.

I knew there was better SS amplification out there, so I experimented with McIntosh, and was pleasantly surprised with the MC7200, which was much smoother and more natural than the TFM-35x. Later I borrowed my brother's mint MC2100...great dynamics, but still way too much power at 100+ WPC. So I bought the classic MC250 (at 50+ WPC), and to this day if I didn't already own a 300B SET amp, I'd still be using this prized SS amp! Very neutral and transparent, clean and precise, with almost a hint of tube warmth...IMO simply the best to my ears my Cornwalls ever sounded with SS amplification! The Carvers were nice (especially with my Maggies and JBLs) , but the McIntosh power amps combined with my Cornwalls proved to me why they're superior!

Just my two cents worth...

[psg]

One thing I forgot to mention is that I have

not yet refreshed the crossovers on my K-Horns (or the Cornwall

center) yet. I am not convinced that the latest flavor in

capacitor construction will create some acoustic magic.

Start by spending $50 to update the 5 caps in there. As per recommendations from the forum, I use the following from

partsconneXion.com to update my 27 year-old caps:

4x 62338 Auricap (2.0 mfd, 200V, .78"D x .90"L US$9.95 each.

2x 62368 Solen fast capacitor (13.0 mfd, 400V, PB1300) US$4.75 each

Total: US$49.50

I gained clarity in the high end. I use as much as 10 dB less

volume on jazz to get the desired sound and impact. Makes a big

difference.