Best type of capacitors for recapping Type A Xovers?

[DizRotus]

That's the plan then; woofer first. I'll post my impressions and some photos.

Thanks.

[BEC]

Shawn,

The Wavetek can do transfer functions. I played with that a couple of years ago some but what the Wavetek does on a daily basis is just document conformance of crossovers we build and rebuild. Just a quick trace of all three outputs on the HP plotter to verify against one kept as a standard.

I really want to move that documentation/test stuff to a computer if I can ever find a good accurate PC based solution. Everytime I try one of the available PC based types, I find I need them to do more and better and move back to the Wavtek.

What I really want is for some company to build a good hardware based sweep/function generator and all the functions of a good stand-alone spectrum analyzer into a laptop. While we are at it, lets get them to put in a Class T amp good for a few watts and a good mic preamp with phantom power.

Now all that would unclutter the work area.

Bob

[sfogg]

Bob,

Yeah, I hear you about the PC based FFT. I use one (WinAudioMLS) for

acoustic/mic measurements but for hardware testing it is easier/quicker

to just use the hardware FFT.

Some year I want to get around to playing with the HP interface on the

FFT and the function generator. They can be controlled/programmed

through them to do automated testing. My multi-meter can get linked

together that way too.

"What I really want is for some company to build a good hardware based

sweep/function generator and all the functions of a good stand-alone

specturm analyzer into a laptop. While we are at it, lets get them to

put in a Class T amp good for a few watts and a good mic preamp with

phantom power."

There are two Audio Precision Model 2s up on ebay right now. The AP

stuff is pretty much the reference many companies use. Not cheap though

and the models they have up there I think are pretty much striped

models. There are other setups like that too but they are all $$$$$.

"Now all that would unclutter the work area. "

A clean desk is a sign of a sick mind.....

Shawn

[Erik Mandaville]

Shawn:

Re: Home-made testing.

I have made switching devices to compare different passive components, as well as preamps and amps. Wanting to exclude any possible knowledge of the switch positions, I have often asked Marie to be the switch operator while I listened. Despite the fact that I would be aware of what components were in the test, the results of some of these experiments were interesting, if not slightly embarrassing!

For her own entertainment, my switch operator always likes to throw a couple of curve balls (she would also laugh at the serious expression on my face, as I sat poised and ready to hear the differences). One unexpected pitch had to do with this: when the test was over, it was revealed that what I had heard on all occasions was the same component. I listened to the mechanical sound of the switch, but it was always moved back to the first position for the actual listening test! We've done this bunches of times in the past, and I don't remember the exact components being tested, but I think in this last case what I wanted to do was try to hear differences between the variable L-pad and autoformer in a crossover. I truly thought that one (whichever it may have been) seemed a little clearer or detailed than the other, but the difference was not significant. The sound of switching brought about a sort of 'classically conditioned' response (Pavlov), causing the imaginary perception of a slight difference between the two. In fact, I had only heard either the L-pad or the autoformer, but not both.

Erik

[Erik Mandaville]

Craig:

In a few recent threads, you have asked that I stop making 'snide' remarks, which you indicated was the reason behind your name-calling, un-called-for profanity, etc.

In the first page of this particular thread, I simply mentioned that I didn't think the BEST capacitor is always the most expensive one, and that what a person 'likes' or 'dislikes' regarding the type or brand of capacitor in question may not necessarily have anything to do with how much it costs.

Your response to that was:

"Only if your from the anal analyzer society. I hear you were elected president."

Craig

Nice, huh?

[NOSValves]

Erik,

Your reply to my post in it's entirety was a snide remark. In fact you read into my post something that was simply not there. This entire thread was ended by the person asking the question and he made his decision and ordered what he feels fit the bill for him. I have no problem with the decision he made so why do you feel you have to single out my post and then read into it what I NEVER SAID!! This thread had sat without reply for 2 days its like your running around looking for ways to disagree with me (along with your best pal). The fact of the matter is I could careless what either of you think.

My post did not say.

The answer to your question is simple the most expensive your wallet will allow you too afford.

It said

The answer to your question is simple the best your wallet will allow you too afford.



No where in my post did I say the most expensive is the best in fact you should know me well enough to know I enjoy finding mid priced components that do the same job of the more expensive components. For instance my old favorite cap to use in vintage rebuilding was the Auricap when those nuts decides to raise there prices 40% I went searching for a cap that would perform in the same manner and I found some every bit as good for around the same price previous the hike Sonicaps! I also use Russian film and foils which are excellent caps IMHO every bit as good as a Hovland for half the price. I'm a big believer in value but I'm also a big believer in quality caps make a difference. When someone is building or buying something like a crossover or having a vintage amp rebuilt why not spend a few extra bucks what the heck your only going to do it once. I don't get this cheap mentality that is prevalent around here at times. To me a hobby is for enjoyment the more enjoyment you get the better value for your money. This isn't investment banking.

Craig

[Erik Mandaville]

Craig:

Incorrect. It wasn't snide in anyway. I don't agree with your statement that, "The answer to your question is simple the best your wallet will allow you too afford," but it wasn't snide. If you look at your response, the implication is very clearly that the the greater the financial investment, the better the capacitor. I disagree with that viewpoint.

When someone disagrees with you, you tend to call it 'snide,' or a 'jab.' It's the difference of opinion that I think you have the difficult time with.

The ingredients of your response to my differing opinion was 100% pure insult.

Erik

[NOSValves]

Craig:

Incorrect. It wasn't snide in anyway. I don't agree with your statement that, "The answer to your question is simple the best your wallet will allow you too afford," but it wasn't snide. If you look at your response, the implication is very clearly that the the greater the financial investment, the better the capacitor. I disagree with that viewpoint.

When someone disagrees with you, you tend to call it 'snide,' or a 'jab.' It's the difference of opinion that I think you have the difficult time with.

The ingredients of your response to my differing opinion was 100% pure insult.

Erik

Yes my reply was indeed 100% insult so take the god damn hint and leave me alone. I could careless what you have to say or think!!! Is that clear enough for you?

Got it..............Good

Craig

[NOSValves]

Oh and lets clear something up. Bob's caps are not the cheapest he could buy by a long shot. This thread has had so much reading into peoples comments its almost sickening.

In my book the cheapest is never the best by the same token either is the most expensive. The best usually lands somewhere in the middle in my book.

Craig

[Deang]

Erik,

What an odd thing it is that as many times as this subject has come up in the past -- including the autoformer/variable L-pad debate -- that you never mentioned these little tests with your ears and Marie. This seems rather convenient now. So, when do you plan on sharing with everyone the situation with your hearing?

Jim,

This conversation between us is going to start bordering on the comical, but I guess we should go over it again. In an earlier response you said:

"As you've said, there just aren't that many people building capacitors of this type anymore so the likelihood of them being built on the same lines as commodity parts is very high, as is the likelihood the performance is almost identical."

My response to this was that it wasn't what I'd said. What I had said was:

"Regardless of brand name, there is only a small handful of manufacturers that make capacitors. For example -- Hovlands, Auricaps, and Kimbers are all rolled at the same place. Richard Marsh of Reliable Capacitor uses someone else. The biggest determining factor in pricing is the type and quality of the film. Now, if you go to the Mouser Catalog, you will see that capacitors of similiar type and build from Vishay and Wima cost about the same as Auricap and Kimber. The problem here is the limited values they have to choose from."

The latter part of the your statement is true, and as you can see from reading my original comment above I basically said the same thing. However, our exchange was triggered by your earlier statement where you had referred to the capacitors I use as "those sold by charlatans." The point I was making was that if you compare the prices for the same cap "type" between companies that carry the "audiophile" designation and those that don't -- you find the pricing very similiar. In other words, a quality 2uF metallized polypropylene from Vishay out of the Mouser catalog costs about the same as a 2uF Auricap from Audience. However, In most cases I can't get 4uF, 7uF, 13uF, or 40uF from Vishay or Wima unless I go special order and high quantity. However, companies like Auricap, Kimber, Hovland, etc. have all the various values wound, order them in high quantity, and then sell them in lower quanities to the smaller manufacturers and DIY hobbyists. At any rate, it doesn't appear that these "charlatans" are selling them for anymore than someone like Mouser or Digikey would sell the "commodity versions" for if they carried those values. In some cases the audiophile charlatans have better deals on these type capacitors than someone like Mouser does for a "commodity" version. For example: A Vishay 735P in 20uF sells for $54.62. An Auricap in the same value retails for roughly $45.00. With my OEM pricing I can get it directly from Audience for $33.00.

"It's true by the way, there just aren't that many actual manufacturers of these devices nor is the volume large on them comparatively. How many 30uf 250 volt audio caps do you think get sold worldwide compared to something like a .1uf, 10volt smt0402 ceramic capacitor? Or Bob's GE motor runs for that matter? It's many orders of magnitude different. And there's the rub. Small volume components cost far more to make than those that are built in larger quantities even when everything else about them is completely equal..."

Even if the total production numbers were identical, a film type would always cost more than an equivalent value ceramic or electrolytic because the material is more expensive. Even still, building discrete isn't as widespread as it used to be, so it makes sense that the parts used in mass produced products are going to cost less to produce because of the higher quantities they are produced in. Opamps, IC's and SMT rule the day I suppose, but I believe it's still widely accepted that the parts and the circuits employing them generally produce inferior sound to something built with discrete parts. Things are rarely if ever "equal", and the complexities involved with this issue don't allow for cut and dry conclusions. It should also be pointed out that capacitors of the same "type" often spec out closely in ESR and DF, but not in DA -- and this does effect the behavior of the part while under a load. Finally, there is the simple and rather straight-forward idea of simply using the "right" part for the specified application. In other words, I wonder what my heating and air friends would say if I told them I fixed my furnace blower by replacing a bad motor run capacitor with a film type wrap and fill capacitor. Incidently, GE industrial makes more than one kind of 'canned' capacitor. Maybe it would be beneficial to spend a few minutes at their website to see what GE recommends for general AC use. If you compare the specs between their 50/60Hz motor runs and their AC General Purpose types, you will see that even though they spec out the same, GE has different usage recommendations for them. Also of interest is that the General Purpose cans cost almost twice as much as their 50/60 motor run counterparts. I guess I'll leave it to you to decide what's so "special" about them that they cost twice as much as the 50/60Hz types, or why GE makes different usage recommendations for for them since they apparently "spec the same". I sure hope the audiophile charlatans at GE don't find out we're on to them.

"Outside of the questionable and unproven audio differences between something like the GE caps and some of the specialty parts..."

You're doing it again: Maybe it would help me if you defined what a "specialty part" is?

"...this is my real problem with a lot of the high end audio products. You're not necessarily paying for anything superior, you're often paying for nothing more than manufacturing inefficiency because of design criteria and tight specs that aren't proven valuable, and low manufacturing volume."

Well, I guess I'm glad it's your problem and not mine!

"So while I thank you for the links, I don't see one study that shows any correlation between the more obscure characteristics and construction techniques of capacitors and the audibility of those items in use. But maybe I missed it? That is the subject of this thread isn't it?

LOL, I don't even remember the subject of this thread, which is all over the place now. At any rate, the links were provided to you after you said:

"Dean... they are very often designed to outlandish and questionable specifications and consequently overpriced, then sold with dubious claims in an attempt to justify this price...And the case of many of them, it's more a function of how they're marketed and the volumes they're manufactured in than it is in any use of superior materials or better manufacturing techniques."

I didn't post links with "studies" supporting the idea that sonics are effected by "obscure characteristics and construction techniques" because that wasn't what I was responding to.

[Erik Mandaville]

Dean:

Don't you have some oil caps to throw into trash can? Seems quite the leap to me to go from there to your little 'hee hee' post.

I do lots of things I don't mention on this forum.

Later,

Erik

[NOSValves]

Yea I had a interesting conversation with a Hovland Rep back when I was searching for a direct supplier for replacement of the Auricaps. I mentioned that I use Auricaps and that they had raised there priced close in cost to Hovlands. The rep from Hovland said " Yea those Auricaps are wound in the same factory as the Musicap and let me tell you if we produced a similar type cap with are current pricing structure it would retail at 50% less then Musicaps". I think there must be a huge difference in the cost in producing a true film and foil over a metalized poly cap. The other option is that the guy from Hovland was full of sh!t. But it does makes sense to me. I think Auricap just decided to cash in on the popularity they had garnished from the first few successful years of business.

Craig

[Deang]

I'm sure everyone but you knew I was kidding. I only came back with the later comment because I was afraid someone might have actually thought I was serious. Sure enough -- there was one.

"I do lots of things I don't mention on this forum."

Well, some things are better off left unsaid.

[Deang]

The rep from Hovland said " Yea those Auricaps are wound in the same factory as the Musicap and let me tell you if we produced a similar type cap with our current pricing structure it would retail at 50% less then Musicaps".

Wow, that Hovland guy was a genius.

2uF Auricap from Percy Audio is $9.95
2uF Hovland from Percy Audio is $21.50

The Hovlands are definitely overpriced. A 2uF F/F Theta is $14, the F/F Solen for $13. Yeah, you do have me thinking.

[NOSValves]

Dean,

I wouldn't use Percy Audio as my only source of price comparison or just one value for that matter.

1uF @ 200V Hovland 14.95 at AES at retail

1uF @ 200V Auricap 13.84 MSRP from Audience and $9.50 from Percy Audio (which I think he may have absorbs the price hike to some extent?) AES dropped Auricap like a rock not long after the price hike also.

Then quit looking through Crossover Binoculars and remember I don't deal with the values you do in amplifiers its a different world.

The most popular value in a vintage amp is .1uf 600V

Your Percy audio pricing

Hovland 10.95

Auricap 9.95

VRD caps .47 @ 600V

Hovland 19.50

Auricap 12.95

Now check out Sonicaps which is a cap very much like the Auricap.

2uF @200V Retail Sonic Craft 7.40

.47 @ 600V 7.60

.1uF " " " " 5.40

These prices on Sonicap is very similar to what Auricap was not all that long ago. You weren't involves in any of this when these price hikes took effect.

Craig

[jwc]

The rep from Hovland said " Yea those Auricaps are wound in the same factory as the Musicap and let me tell you if we produced a similar type cap with our current pricing structure it would retail at 50% less then Musicaps".

Wow, that Hovland guy was a genius.

2uF Auricap from Percy Audio is $9.95

2uF Hovland from Percy Audio is $21.50

The Hovlands are definitely overpriced. A 2uF F/F Theta is $14, the F/F Solen for $13. Yeah, you do have me thinking.

Guys, pardon me for stepping in here. I kinda wondered what sets these capacitors apart. I have some Theta's in My type A's. I kinda wondered If I would notice any further improvement if I upgraded to Hovlands. From your discussion, this might only be a marginal improvement. I didn't realize the price jump for the Hovland name. For that kinda money, I could use Solen "Fast caps" and build the Super AA or ALK universal A.

Craig and Dean, are you guys concluding that the Audience caps are "essentially" the same? Or maybe it is safe to say that this is the hint or suggestion you are getting from your supplier but you aren't quite sure it is true or not? I'm not asking you to step on you supplier here...maybe i shouldn't ask.

edit: I just saw Craigs last post after I typed this one.

Also, don't hear many speak of the Solen F/F. Do you think they are on par with the Thetas?

In a jokeing sense, someone said lets move on to inductors. Been pricing the Air core for low pass filters. No one really talks of the Erse air core inductors I see on Parts Express. Any experience with these and are they of any quality compared with the Solen (not referring to Litz).

jc

[tofu]

so, what's the concensus with bypass caps? do they make a difference or not?

would there be an audible difference between using

2 2.0 uFd. +-5% Solen "Fast caps" paralled with:

2 0.22 uFd. +-10% Harmony by-pass capacitor

(from North Creek Music)

or going the easier route with

2 2.2 uFd. +-5% Solen "Fast caps"

[NOSValves]

Guys, pardon me for stepping in here. I kinda wondered what sets these capacitors apart. I have some Theta's in My type A's. I kinda wondered If I would notice any further improvement if I upgraded to Hovlands. From your discussion, this might only be a marginal improvement. I didn't realize the price jump for the Hovland name. For that kinda money, I could use Solen "Fast caps" and build the Super AA or ALK universal A.

Craig and Dean, are you guys concluding that the Audience caps are "essentially" the same? Or maybe it is safe to say that this is the hint or suggestion you are getting from your supplier but you aren't quite sure it is true or not? I'm not asking you to step on you supplier here...maybe i shouldn't ask.

edit: I just saw Craigs last post after I typed this one.

Also, don't hear many speak of the Solen F/F. Do you think they are on par with the Thetas?

In a jokeing sense, someone said lets move on to inductors. Been pricing the Air core for low pass filters. No one really talks of the Erse air core inductors I see on Parts Express. Any experience with these and are they of any quality compared with the Solen (not referring to Litz).

jc

JC,

No Auricap and Hovland while made in the same factory are very different in there construction and material used. Auricaps should be way cheaper across the board then Hovlands was my point. The Auricap is a well made Metalized film cap. Metalized means in laymen terms, a layer of metal is applied to the film and then they roll it up! The Hovland is a true Film and Foil cap where there are 2 layer rolled up one film and one foil. Your Theta caps I believe are also a Film and Foil. I bet you would get little or no benefit from switching to Hovlands. My point is that Auricaps are over priced and your paying for a name I think Hovlands are similar in that respect. They are both over priced.......

I personally have ripped more Solens out of amps then I can count and they absolutely hit the garbage can[] But remember in my application the cap has a dual duty. Blocking DC while allowing as much of the AC signal through as possible crossovers are a different electrical environment.

Craig

[BEC]

tofu said: "so, what's the concensus with bypass caps? do they make a difference or not?

would there be an audible difference between using

2 2.0 uFd. +-5% Solen "Fast caps" paralled with:

2 0.22 uFd. +-10% Harmony by-pass capacitor

(from North Creek Music)"

Consensus? Now that is asking a lot. In my opinion, bypassing with a tiny value like that makes absoultely no sense in any way.

Bob Crites

[Al Klappenberger]

Guys,

Since the suggestion of using 2.0 Solen + .22 Harmony bypass cap probably came from my downloadable design for my Universal network, In my opinion: I agree with Bob.. Use a single 2.2 uF of any brand you like! Bypassing seems to only be usefull at microwave frequency. At audio it's a wast of money. I do it with the 6.2 + 1.0 just to get close to 7.0 uF. I think a single 6.8 uFd is close enough. I have done away with it on the 39+1 uF in favor of 20+20 instead in the ones I build.

Now I got a question: I got a pile of base boards made on a CNC machine for my Universal network that have a hole cut for a terminal post just in the right place for the lead length of the Hovland 2.2 uF cap. What reasonably priced caps have stranded wire leads of the same or longer length as the Hovlands? I don't want to drill holes and add another terminal post just to change cap brands! If I just moved that one terminal post the leads of the 6.2 + 1.0 wouldn't be long enough.

Al K.