I Bought Klipschorns :)

[meagain]

I thought the JBL 4430 was relatively inexpensive. I was eyeing them on Ebay just cuz they looked so cool.

Yes Duke - I'd love to hear how exactly they compare to the khorns (as well as the other 2 in the 'rotating circuit').

Tiger - I'm trying to be patient but various things drive me nuts on occasion. Like some things are too upfront & over when I feel they should be more subdued and not the focus. About the tube thing, hubby & discussed this last night and I basically said "everyone" says to get tubes. That they make a big difference. And I've sent him various blurbs of those comments. We are willing to try this somewhere in the system.

Unfortunately, we are beyond clueless this tube stuff. None of these names/brands are familiar and IDK about hubby, but the only thing I know about them is they have tubes sticking out. Seriously. That's basically it. I wouldn't even know where to begin to scout these out or what I should look for. Not to mention how to tie them in with everything port-wise, etc. If anyone knows of a website primmer, I'll be up for reading it.

Not sure I'm willing to go balls to the walls with the $5k dealie above, but willing to put tubes somewhere.

As far as getting new crossovers, I'm up for it but have yet to find any post or thread/site that actually explains what the differences between all the options would be to my ears. I'm afraid to make things worse - like, what if they make something more upfront that I think is ALREADY upfront, etc. I just have yet to learn what I'll realize from them and till I learn - can't make that leap of faith.

Tiger - Where are theses VRDs & ALKs for sale so I can go looksee.

I have AA's (1981 khorns)

[3dzapper]

"As far as getting new crossovers, I'm up for it but have yet to find any post or thread/site that actually explains what the differences between all the options would be to my ears. I'm afraid to make things worse - like, what if they make something more upfront that I think is ALREADY upfront, etc. I just have yet to learn what I'll realize from them and till I learn - can't make that leap of faith."

Assuming that any brand new car (network) is tremendously better than an old clunker, Al K's Extreme Slope networks are the Mercedes Benz, his ALK Type A are the Caddillacs, Dean's Modified AA the Buicks, his DHAs the Potiacs and Bob Crite's AA replacement/rebuild the Chevrolet. The price ranges follow the GM example on a much lower scale.-)

I have "Caddillacs" driving my Khorns and home rebuilt "Chevrolets" in the Belles.

All but the Chevrolets have provisions to adjust at least the squaker level to your ears in your room by adjusting the placement of some wire connections. All will allow more detail to emerge from the background and all will have cleaner presentation in the highs.

Rick

[Jeff Matthews]

Re: The VRD's, I believe these are made by Craig, who goes by NOSValves on this forum. I've heard rave reviews about them.

[cjgeraci]

Congrats on your Klipschorns - you will love them.

I own three Belles across the front - a little sister - if you will - of the mighty Klipschorn. Same drivers, but the Belle is not a cornerhorn.

Ditto what people have said about crossover upgrades and tubes.

Here are the links to the ALKs and VRDs for sale here - and the OEM pages:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/1/652850/ShowPost.aspx#652850

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/651294/ShowPost.aspx

http://www.nosvalves.com/vrd.htm

http://www.alkeng.com/

With respect to Al's page, go to "Klipsch loudspeaker upgrades" on the left and then to "universal upgrade" - that is the particular "ALK" that we are talking about.

By the analogy, I have had the Chevy, Buick, and the Cadillac (ALK) in my Belles, and the Cadillac is pretty nice - even at higher volumes. Al provides a good technical explanation on his page, and you can attentuate the upper end as much as you want, using the ALKs.

Craig's VRD's are great tube amps. I do not know how much Boomac wants for his VRDs, but the best way is to email him to find out price, and if they are still available. An outstanding option if it is in your price range.

Initially add tubes somewhere in your system. I think adding a tube preamp makes a bigger difference to start out with - as opposed by starting by adding a tube amp to a solid state preamp. I am also a big fan of the Peach tube preamp - it is staying in my system, no matter the amps.

However, you may not want to discount the idea of going with a nice tube integrated amp to start with. Much more cost effective to begin with. There are great rebuilds out there of vintage tube integrated amps to get your feet wet. Look on Craig's site - he probably has some examples. Also, you may want to start a thread asking about tube integrated options, etc. I also run a tubed CD player and love it.

Enjoy. The journey has just begun.

Carl.

[maxg]

Meagain,

I have skimmed through this thread but I think you are running all over the place here - before you can walk.

I am also quite impressed by the husband's hearing. I am guessing your horns are not yet sealed into corners - false or otherwise. If you play Khorns out in the open so to speak then you tend to drop out the mid-bass to lower mid-range frequencies quite a bit (from memory 250 to 400 Hz).

Tell Hubby to get the corners sorted out before you make any judgements on the sound. Once setup - leave them alone for at least a couple of months (do any cosmetic stuff you like - but hold fire on cross-overs, replacement drivers etc.) Get used to the sound. See what you like and what you dont like - report back and then, one step at a time, progress to your ultimate sound. If you think something is amiss with the sound - ask here - there are plenty that can advise - but my guess is that you have a fine working pair of KHorns that "need" very little real work other than locating them properly.

This is not supposed to be a journey you make in a day - enjoy the ride. You will get much more enjoyment from your "final" sound this way than you ever would quick fixing it over a weekend.

That's it for now - just remember this is not work - it is supposed to be a fun thing to do.

[cjgeraci]

Good advice Max. After you properly seal them, then you can better address any potential upgrades you may want to make. Report back and we will continue to offer thoughts.

Carl.

[rplace]

To see if you like tubes get an integrated Scott or Fisher that has been gone over by Craig at NOSValves. You should be able to do it for $350-550. If you like the warm, lush sound sell the integrated and get most if not all of your money back and jump in whole hog with a tube pre amp and monoblocks. No sense in spending $1000s if you favor the solid state sound. I actually find things I like in both.

[meagain]

Maxg - "If you play Khorns out in the open so to speak then you tend to drop out the mid-bass to lower mid-range frequencies quite a bit (from memory 250 to 400 Hz)." They are 'almost' touching the walls. Maybe no more than 1/2" away. I don't know why hubby did that but he did. Tonight we are moving them and adding pipe insulation to the rear vertical board edges to seal against wall.

I was of the impression 'sealing' against the wall affects ONLY the bass. The woofer. Am I wrong? Maxg, I'm confused about what you're saying here re: 'drop out the mid-bass to lower mid-range'.

I'm perfectly fine with the bass, Love it! It's the mid-range area I'm personally having a problem with (I think). I think the tweeter is fine?

Would sealing affect the mid-range (Squawker?)? I didn't think it did that. If so, then yes, I'll reserve judgement.

Rplace - You're speaking in terms I can understand. "Warm, lush" - I can relate to. Now - is THIS what tubes will bring to the table? Warmth? If tubes would give some 'warmth' without altering the recording by 'coloring' it - then this sounds like a good thing. I think I need to somehow listen to a proper setup as I'm skeptical of the improvements I'll see with tubes over my $600-650 receiver.

About the crossovers, Thanks for explaining the hierirarchy of what's out there. Now, If I could glean what this would mean for my ears - that would help. I'll go look for threads on people who've upgraded to try to understand the difference I'd realize. You know - I have better luck on google then here. Am I understanding there was an old Klipsch forum that can only be accessed via google or something?

[Cal Blacksmith]

Maxg - "If you play Khorns out in the open so to

speak then you tend to drop out the mid-bass to lower mid-range

frequencies quite a bit (from memory 250 to 400

Hz)." They are 'almost' touching the

walls. Maybe no more than 1/2" away. I don't know why hubby

did that but he did. Tonight we are moving them and adding pipe

insulation to the rear vertical board edges to seal against wall.

Good, get them located properly, it makes a big difference. They need to be sealed into the corners, natural or false.

I

was of the impression 'sealing' against the wall affects ONLY the

bass. The woofer. Am I wrong? Maxg, I'm confused

about what you're saying here re: 'drop out the mid-bass to lower

mid-range'.

I'm perfectly fine with the bass, Love

it! It's the mid-range area I'm personally having a problem

with (I think). I think the tweeter is fine?

Would

sealing affect the mid-range (Squawker?)? I didn't think it

did that. If so, then yes, I'll reserve judgment.

Again, get them sealed and then give them a long try, get used to them like Max said, before making any changes.

Rplace

- You're speaking in terms I can understand. "Warm, lush" - I can

relate to. Now - is THIS what tubes will bring to the

table? Warmth? If tubes would give some 'warmth'

without altering the recording by 'coloring' it - then this sounds like

a good thing. I think I need to somehow listen to a proper setup

as I'm skeptical of the improvements I'll see with tubes over my

$600-650 receiver.

Remember, everything

in your system will "color" the sound, the difference is whether or

not you like the coloration! A tube pre-amp makes the biggest

difference in my opinion, of all the major components. Tubes are

known for adding warmth but some tube power amps are said to have

"flabby" bass. It is my opinion that it is mainly the SET (Single Ended

Triode) amps that are so inclined. I have a PP (Push Pull) power amp

and I love the control it has on my Cornwalls bass.

About

the crossovers, Thanks for explaining the hierirarchy of what's out

there. Now, If I could glean what this would mean for my

ears - that would help. I'll go look for threads on people who've

upgraded to try to understand the difference I'd

realize. You know - I have better luck on google then

here. Am I understanding there was an old Klipsch forum that can

only be accessed via google or something?

The threads from the old forum are available

through this one. There was a major software upgrade/change and that is

what was refered to as old vs new forum. Give yourself time to explore

your system, learn to hear what it can offer you. Give it time to

settle in, you are going through a major change going from cones to

horns and that needs to take root. There will be lots of time in the

future to make changes. If you make them too rapidly and in a shotgun

fashion, you most likely will spend lots of money and not really know

what you are listening to. Make the next changes slowly, carefully and

with a purpose. You have stepped up to MAJOR improvement in sound, now

there are only small steps to take to tweak your system to be "perfect"

[Coytee]

Meagain..

To draw an analogy,

If the speed limit is 25, then are you speeding if you go 25 ½ mph? How about 26? I think if youre going 90 then its fairly safe to say you are speeding.

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Where am I going with that analogy? Incremental gains. I obtained my Khorns from a forum member (and drove to Chicago from Knoxville to get them). That said, the first thing I did was get a tube ampI just picked one and jumped. I then upgraded my crossovers (or networks) to Als ES or Extreme Slope networks. A while later, another forum member came over so we could mix & compare some amps. He happened to bring a Behringer (sp?) RTA (Real Time Analyzer).

To make a long story short, using the RTA, we found my room had a standing wave right smack dab at 90 HZ. Meaning there was an excess or pile up of that frequency and the ones next to it. We toned that specific frequency down and Ive NEVER had a more significant singular noticeable tweak than that. I found out that my bass was a bit muddy. The muddy bass cleared up and now the regular bass AND the lower bass sound much more natural. You can do an A/B with the tape loop and its a pretty blatant difference.

I noticed a larger increase in the quality of my sound after tweaking the response curve at 90HZ, than I did going to a tube amp, going to Als ES networks and going to tube preamp. Did the other changes MAKE a change? Yes. What Im saying though is for ME, they were more like speeding at 25 ½ mph, where as finding and fixing the standing 90HZ problem I had was more like going 90mph in a 25. It was a CLEARLY and most dramatically noticeable change.

Id almost bet a nickel that if you were able to do the same, (if you had similar issues), youd like that change more so than almost any other.

I guess what Im saying is, Im glad I had that done for me sooner, rather than later as I would have otherwise been searching for this ghost in my equipment when in fact, it was my living room that was the ghost.

Now that the ghost is tamed, I can look at other changes and do a bit more fine tuning.

[MarkBK]

Meagain,

There has been a lot a great advice given - do yourself a favor and get them mounted correctly first as pointed out by others. This WILL make the single most significant difference. In the Chicago suburbs - go to Simply Stereo (used to be HI-FI Hutch 20+ years ago) in Hoffman Estates - a VERY long time Klipsch dealer who had Black Ash KHorns in a demo room last time I checked. Not sure if they are set up optimally, but it looks like they are - give a listen just for comparison.

Craig's VRD are great amps or you could also look at the TAD tube amps/ preamps from Paul at Bizzy Bee - He's located in Wheaton Illinois and also has great options that are highly regarded.

BTW - where are you in the burbs? I have vintage McIntosh C22 / MC240 running RF5s (used to own Cornwalls - downsized per wife's request) and it is quite sweet. Maybe we could do a get together to audition the Khorns with the Mac's?

Mark

I

[meagain]

Cal - Interesting. The last thing I want is a flabby bass. I'll save that info.

Coytee - Wow. Maybe I could have hubby try to score on one of those gadgets. Am I correct in understanding that you fixed this problem by just tweaking the physical room?

I've been listening to alot of bass and I'm just loving it.

But no one really answered this.... Does snugging them in properly do anything for the horns? Am I wrong in thinking it was just to help the bass?

[Coytee]

Cal - Interesting. The last thing I want is a flabby bass. I'll save that info.

Coytee - Wow. Maybe I could have hubby try to score on one of those gadgets. Am I correct in understanding that you fixed this problem by just tweaking the physical room?

I've been listening to alot of bass and I'm just loving it.

But no one really answered this.... Does snugging them in properly do anything for the horns? Am I wrong in thinking it was just to help the bass?

Did it "FIX" the room problem? hmm..I'd rather say it only helped minimize the problem. I'm sure if the room was analyzed closer, I'd still have some issues. My understanding is the behringer unit is only around $300? (maybe someone who has one can chime in). Fortunately for me, I already had an equalizer in my closet so I simply pulled it out and by stroke of luck, it had a slider right at 90HZ.

As far as snugging to corners, I think the primary issue there IS in fact the bass, however, my readings have led me to belive that the horns (upper & mid) also being in the corner will benefit to a degree. The reality is, by having the bass unit snugged in corner, the rest of it will also be snugged so it's kind of a moot point. (and I might certainly have that understanding wrong)

[thebes]

Megain,

I'd like to again recommend fellow forum member and Chicagoan TBrennan

to you. Look him up in the member directory and drop him an email

or private message. He's crusty and opinionated (I happen to love

the guy) and is very active in at least one horn group in

Chicago. Forget the name of the group but they have regular

meetings. Make arrangments for you or hubby to attend one of the

meetings. Not only will there be a mix of horn-loaded speakers,

but a considerable amount of tube gear etc. Although these days

he's an Altec fan, he is very knowledgable about Klipschorns.

There may also be other forum members in the chicago area that own

horns, maybe they'll chime in and you get by their house for a listen

and some sage advice.

[maxg]

"But no one really answered this.... Does snugging them in properly do anything for the horns? Am I wrong in thinking it was just to help the bass? "

Now Meagain - you are getting in way too deep at this early stage and all answers are going to confuse you.

In simple terms - your speaker has 3 horns on it, one for the tweeter, one for the midrange or squarker and a folded one for the bass driver.

The only horn of the three that really HAS to be in the corner is the bass horn. I think you are being fooled by nomenclature as much as anything else. Do not think of bass merely as boom boom deep sounds. You would be amazed at how high the sounds from the bass unit can appear to be.

The bass unit on your speaker plays from about 35 Hz up to 500 or 600 Hz (I cannot recall exactly - someone can provide the right number). If you listen to 500 Hz - or even 300 Hz you are not going to think bass - you are going to think midrange in all probability.

Within the range of frequencies that the folded bass horn plays the ones that are MOST effected by proper corner sealing are in the range I mentioned before (250 - 400). This range, as you can see, is covered by the bass driver but it is not the deep heavy notes.

Help any?

[meagain]

Wow! Yes! Very helpful. I didn't realize that (and I should have). I also don't really see the bass has a horn because it has the typical round thingy. I'll relay this info to hubby and after we position them better, have him listen to his Miles Davis issues again. I don't even have 1/2 the side grills on. LOL - Don't tell me 'that' matters also! [:$]

Mark - Sounds interesting. Maybe we can talk about this after the holidays? You might however be appalled at the size of the room these are in.

I'm listening to Stone Temple Pilots & Depeche Mode now before he comes home and gets all jazzy on me. DM sounds great through these! I need new windows, cuz these rattle.

[LarryC]

K-horn bass horns are crossed over at 400 or 450 Hz. So, think about this: middle C is around 261 Hz, and an orchestra tunes at a 440-Hz "A". Those notes are well up into the middle range! So, the bass horn needs to be pushed into the corner to benefit those tonal areas.

You should let them get well settled in and get well used to them at this point. Also, note that every equipment change will bring out new sounds and sometimes hide sounds you're used to. That seems to have happened on the K's with music your hubby is used to, although generally K-horns are so open that not that much stays hidden.

Other issues mentioned were crossovers and tube amps. Do I recall yours are 1981's? It's quite possible the crossovers could benefit from freshening by Bob Crites, or replaced with DeanG's. However, I would suggest this: IF the K's sound peaky in the upper range or upper middle range, which was what I heard from old 1976 crossovers that needed changes, then crossover renewal or replacement should be higher on your list.

As for tube amps, there is something beautifully complementary about the combination of the extremely open, dynamic nature of horns and the natural instrumental tone quality and musical transient response of tubes! To my ears, solid state (SS) has a slightly to excessively exaggerated (depending on the unit) transient response in the middle range that doesn't mesh so well with horns' dynamism. This is why the "liquid" or gentle, yet very accurate, tube sound goes very well with horns. I had top-notch SS for years (Mark Levinson Class A monoblocs), and was very happy to change to tube amps. One caveat: SS bass seems to be more definite and solid.

As for which tube units --- there are a lot of raves on the forum over Mark Deneen's Peach (if you don't have a turntable) or Blueberry (if you do), and the prices are amazingly reasonable. Lots of raves over NOSvalves's VRD's, as well. One forum member has gone higher in price with a BAT preamp (VK-3ix) bought new and BAT amp bought off Audiogon for about half of new. Many very happy McIntosh owners on the forum, as well. I suggest you start with thinking of a Peach or Blueberry -- visit www.juicymusicaudio.com. That might be a good step to take while you're mulling over the crossover question.

Hope this helps.

Larry

[MarkBK]

...

Mark - Sounds interesting. Maybe we can talk about this after the holidays? You might however be appalled at the size of the room these are in.

I'm listening to Stone Temple Pilots & Depeche Mode now before he comes home and gets all jazzy on me. DM sounds great through these! I need new windows, cuz these rattle.

Meagain,

After the holidays sounds good - it's always fun to try out gear in a familiar environment - just let me know. Just what is the size of the room? Wait to you see the size of the Simply Stereo room! It's pretty small - all the more reason to try and make it our there. Those guys have been selling Klipsch for 20+ years and worth the trip just to check out the store.

Have a great holiday and keep on rockin'!

BTW - even though it's "jazzy" try to get a cd of DeeDee Bridgewater - either the Live at Yoshi's or the Horace Silver tribute - DeeDee is an outstanding singer and it will give a you a great recording to use for testing. Both CD's are very well engineered - outstanding fidelity - and most important - killer performance - it will give your speakers a nice test at all frequencies - cymbal detail - midrange vocals, piano and acoustic bass to die for......this lady rocks! (and I DO listen to a VERY broad range of music)...enjoy!

[jbsl]

you've gotten soooooooo much info here I would just make sure the one is sealed in the corner and build a false corner for the other. Don't do anythiing for at least a month which will give you time to go through all these post and make a list of all the suggestions. Then you can research the different suggestions and try the ones you want to.

ENJOY THE KHORNS!!! You have pleanty of time later to tweak and mod later.

Xman

[meagain]

Larry - Fantastic info! I'm saving all this.

Everyone's been most helpful to me and I really appreciate it!

Mark - I didn't know there was actually a store around that had khorns set up. Amazing. The wall these are on is about 12' wide. If that. We hope to remodel and when we do, will design the room for these babies.

JBSL - Yep great info and besides helping me, I'm sure it's helped some lurkers.

Thanks guys! Hubby's playing with things now, first order of biz is to change out the speaker wire from pathetic to proper. (Old monster didn't fit or something). Will let you know if we hear an improvement. Though I must say, they do sound pretty kick butt. Better than most of the big bucks stuff I heard at the audio stores. I was so dissapointed when shopping. Figured unless we pony'd up mega bucks, we'd be screwed. I still can't believe how lucky I got to have found them.