I Bought Klipschorns :)

[meagain]

Jeff - I promise I'll look into the amp issue after the holidays.

Tiger - is there any way to easily tell if my caps are faulty? I've had many suggestions to minimally upgrade the caps and will definitely look into it. The whole crossover area is pristine looking to me so - is there something I should look for with my caps? Or is there a gadget to test them? Hubby found some piece of software to hook to a mic to test. Probably not as good as this Behringer thing, but it's free so we're going to start with that?

I think now alot of this is my receiver. It basically has 2 choices, auto & manual. Been switching between auto (doing this ez set eq gadget deal) and manual and see now a few manual settings weren't right. Also there is some sort of 'crossover' section where I see everything is set to 40hz. I think we're to set this for what the speaker does and I know the khorns aren't at 40. I think I need to change this. Going to investigate now but I think I might be on the verge of greatness here.

[mikebse2a3]

Meagain..

To draw an analogy,

If the speed limit is 25, then are you speeding if you go 25 ½ mph? How about 26? I think if youre going 90 then its fairly safe to say you are speeding.

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Where am I going with that analogy? Incremental gains. I obtained my Khorns from a forum member (and drove to Chicago from Knoxville to get them). That said, the first thing I did was get a tube ampI just picked one and jumped. I then upgraded my crossovers (or networks) to Als ES or Extreme Slope networks. A while later, another forum member came over so we could mix & compare some amps. He happened to bring a Behringer (sp?) RTA (Real Time Analyzer).

To make a long story short, using the RTA, we found my room had a standing wave right smack dab at 90 HZ. Meaning there was an excess or pile up of that frequency and the ones next to it. We toned that specific frequency down and Ive NEVER had a more significant singular noticeable tweak than that. I found out that my bass was a bit muddy. The muddy bass cleared up and now the regular bass AND the lower bass sound much more natural. You can do an A/B with the tape loop and its a pretty blatant difference.

I noticed a larger increase in the quality of my sound after tweaking the response curve at 90HZ, than I did going to a tube amp, going to Als ES networks and going to tube preamp. Did the other changes MAKE a change? Yes. What Im saying though is for ME, they were more like speeding at 25 ½ mph, where as finding and fixing the standing 90HZ problem I had was more like going 90mph in a 25. It was a CLEARLY and most dramatically noticeable change.

Id almost bet a nickel that if you were able to do the same, (if you had similar issues), youd like that change more so than almost any other.

I guess what Im saying is, Im glad I had that done for me sooner, rather than later as I would have otherwise been searching for this ghost in my equipment when in fact, it was my living room that was the ghost.

Now that the ghost is tamed, I can look at other changes and do a bit more fine tuning.

Hello meagain

I'm the person Coytee is referring to above.

There are some things I would like to mention to you after reading some of this thread.

The Behringer DEQ2496 is what I used at Coytee and it includes a 31-band graphic EQ, a 10-band Parametric EQ(very helpfull). It also very importantly includes a 61-band real-time FFT analyzer with an Auto Eq feature. To me the Auto Eq will get you in the ball park but should usually be tweeked with good judgement after you listen to the results from its settings.

The truth is the room/speaker is an inseperateable system. What we hear will always be a result of this combined system. Each room/speaker combination is unique and we have to work with that unique situation in the real world.

One experience of mine that I've had similar to yours is Khorns seperated by approx. 12' . This dimension and the timing of the wall reflections allows coloration in the upper bass and lower midrange and I like you have experimented with sealing the Khorns to the corners. I found in that situation that sealing only the vertical tailboard was very good but if I also sealed the horizontal top piece then I definitly developed audible colorations in the mid-bass and midrange areas you have described. Basically by working with the sealing to the corners I was able to deal with some of my unique room problems. We are more sensitive to colorations in the midrange(vocals especially) than any other area of the frequency spectrum and unfortunatly small room dimensions create more audible problems than larger room dimensions. That being said I will also say I have heard Khorns in at least 8 different sized rooms from small to pretty large and every one had some colorations but the simple fact is larger rooms dimensions for the most part allow less coloration to become a problem. I've used the Behringer in 3 totally different room sizes from small to large with all showing an improvement wich is mostly described as an improvement in clarity, naturalness and realism. The benefit of something like the Behringer when used wisely is it can make improvements in any system I've had it in but if misused your problems can get worse so its important to be willing to learn what a EQ can and can't help to actually improve your sound with one. Of course good equipment is important but the truth is most people get on the Expensive Equipment Merry Go Round when the room/speaker is what really needs to be improved.

My suggestions are:

(1) Make sure all equipment is working properly(crossovers/drivers) and installed correctly(polarity correct from drivers/crossovers to amp)(experiment with the seals to the corners for your unique room also). I would also say in my experience Khorns have always worked best in rectangular rooms when they are setup on the longest dimesion(Coloration and Clarity has always improved each time).

(2) Once good quality equipment is acheived( This doesn't necessarly mean expensive. I recently rebuilt a Scott 222C for a friend with Khorns who also has McIntosh MC30s and a Marantz 8B and just this week a McIntosh MC2000 and all I can say is the Scott was very special and definitly makes you wonder why we would spend multi thousands when great sound for a few hundred can be had). The weakest Link in the sound chain is the room once good speakers and equipment are acheived. My Experience is good room with modest equipment/speakers will beat a poor room with great equipment and speakers anytime.

(3) If Great sound is your goal then the Room must at some point be addressed whether you are using Khorns or any other speakers and My Own Experience also says most systems can benefit from a good EQ with wise adjustments being made.

In other words we need a good room as much as we need good equipment and speakers because they all work together for the final quality of sound we hear.

mike[]

Edit: I also wanted to suggest you get a test CD like Stereophile Test CD 2

STPH 004-2

or one of my favorites is

Chesky's The Ultimate Demonstration Disc UD95

The musical tracks are very well recorded and should sound very natural as

well as the Vocals.

These test Cd's are helpfull for checking for problems with wiring/polarity and other issue with setups with there in phase out of phase test. When all is wired correctly you should have very good center image on the in phase test from the low freq. to the high freq range and if not your wiring from crossover to drivers or amp could be out of polarity or driver/crossover problems or possibly even very early wall reflections especially in the higher frequencies causing problems.

Also I bought my Behringer DEQ2496 and Test Mic ECM8000 from The Guitar Center with a 30 day return option which proved to be unncessary because within about 30 minutes I new I would be keeping it with the improvements it was giving me and to actually use it at its best takes some trial and error because there is a learning curve to using all the features of this unit.

[Jeff Matthews]

I think now alot of this is my receiver.

Yep!

Your HK was good for KG4's. Not for Khorns. Think of it like this. Would you put a VW transmission in a Corvette? Because this is a speaker forum, the amp issue is much neglected in favor of far less important things. You've got the speakers; now, get the amp. Crossovers will not do the trick. They might help some, but go back to the qualities in your previous thread that you said you wanted.

You're not going to get there with crossovers. Crossovers are more of a tweak - maybe an important one. But they will not supply the power element you are missing. The punch requires some real power from a clean amp.

And as for the barely audible little bells you want to hear. You'll get them at moderate levels, but not at loud levels. I think once you start blowing down doors, pin drops are a little hard to hear.

[meagain]

Mikebse - Wow. Nice post. I told hubby we needed an EQ but he didn't listen. Now he's wanting to get one. He's saying he feels it's the one thing that will make the biggest difference. We're pretty happy, but want to tweak things more than this receiver will allow. He's looking at an Alesis(sp?) digital deal with memory for up to 60 settings (which would be pretty nice to have) and now looking at the Behringer stuff. I just sent him your post. We'll go down your checklist to triple check everything.

I'm hopeing I can get least get away with using a good pre-amp? I sure like all the bells/whistles of this harman (remote, etc) and it would be nice to retain that and kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

I knew you guys would make me spend more money! That's OK, it's important. []

EDIT: Girl question... Would there be anything comparable to the Behringer that happened to have blue lights? [:$]

[Jeff Matthews]

Don't later say "I didn't tell you so." Have fun!

[SilverSport]

Possible answer to "girl question"...say...McIntosh! Say YEST to blue lights AND meters!

Bill

[ricktate]

I think you got the big foam...you need to get 1/2 inch pipe foam its for 1/2 inch pipe and is what you need.Also the phase thing needs to be checked,,,its not that easy to tell.. if its been out of phase since you got them.Can you make your reciever all manual so you can tweak it? I think you should just get an HK430 twinn powered reciever and enjoy till you decide on any upgrades usually you can get one of the twinn powered recievers on ebay for around $75....HK430,HK630,HK730 would be all good.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

In my system, the receiver and source (a $500 Denon CD player - $500 in 1988) were the big problem. A Scott LK-48 and Philips 963 SA did the trick.

If you want a cheap fix, I still have a mint condition HK 630 (dual power unit) for sale - $75 plus shipping.

Chris

[Istari]

Tigerwoods,

I'd like to buy your HK 630! I've got the $75.00 plus whatever you need for shipping.

I've been trying to get one of these off of EBay but have been outbid at the last minute.

It the 630 still available?

I've sent you a PM.

[MarkBK]

............

Mark - I sent hubby your post on the DeeDee stuff & before he went to bed tossed that CD in my lap. Tonight we give a listen. Taking suggestions as to what specifically to look for or what song(s) to choose.

Which DeeDee? Either way - give a listen to the whole thing - it will not disappoint. DeeDee's band is quite tight - and you'll be able to check all freq's as well as dynamic range, etc. Let me know which one and I will suggest specific songs.

[mikebse2a3]

Mikebse - Wow. Nice post. I told hubby we needed an EQ but he didn't listen. Now he's wanting to get one. He's saying he feels it's the one thing that will make the biggest difference. We're pretty happy, but want to tweak things more than this receiver will allow. He's looking at an Alesis(sp?) digital deal with memory for up to 60 settings (which would be pretty nice to have) and now looking at the Behringer stuff. I just sent him your post. We'll go down your checklist to triple check everything.

I'm hopeing I can get least get away with using a good pre-amp? I sure like all the bells/whistles of this harman (remote, etc) and it would be nice to retain that and kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

I knew you guys would make me spend more money! That's OK, it's important. []

EDIT: Girl question... Would there be anything comparable to the Behringer that happened to have blue lights? [:$]

Yes meagain I would rather the Behringer had a different color display and a little better visability when slightly of axis of it's display but eventually you should get to a point where it is setup and left alone. It also has 64 stored memory presets also which is very important when trying different EQ adjustment to see which sounds best.

Let me say to begin with I'm not familiar with the Alesis so I have no personnel experience to offer on it and so how it would compare to the Behringer I can't say.

I will say whatever EQ you have I believe you will also need a Very Good Resolution RTA (I personally believe the Behringer is worth its price just for the 1/6 Octave RTA alone. It also helps to look at it when you hear audible problems because by looking at the RTA it can assist you in seeing what Frequencies are actively involved when you do hear the problems.) to assist in being able to see where some of your problem areas are and whether your adjustments are the correct ones. It will surprise you where some problem frequencies are and If your only option is to just listen and tweak the EQ then I believe it would be very hard if not impossible to get the best possible EQ setup. So far the best setups in each room I've used the EQ in has required slight adjustments of a few GEQ 1/3 octave Filters and at least 1 PEQ Filter (larger room) and a small room required 2 PEQ Filters to sound its best. Actually after using the Behringer 1/3 Octave EQ and the PEQ Parametric EQ of the Behringer I would place more importance on the Parametric EQ as the most helpfull at getting to some of the real problem areas. In general the smallest adjustment and the least adjustments is the best way to use an EQ and trying to correct every problem that a RTA shows will usually lead to sonic disappointment because even a good EQ has its limitations in what it can improve because problems like wall reflections are actually a problem in the Time Domain which RTAs can't display and these types of EQs can't for the most part correct for to help improve the sound. Instead some of the colorations should be treated with setup and room design and acoustical treatments. Actually in an ideal world Room treatments (Bass Traps, Absorption and Diffusion "which is much needed in most rooms") used properly(if not used properly even they can actually degrade the sound) should be first but reality for most is room treatments won't be accepted in a lot of listening rooms and they can be very costly as well and even in some of the better rooms I have found an EQ to be of some real benefit even with these treatments.

mike[]

[dwdbear]

i have some cornwall2 for sale at 400.00...... i live in cali. they are in good shape and excellent sound

[sherwoodhifi]

Hello dwdbear,

you have PM.

[meagain]

I think now alot of this is my receiver.

Yep!

Your HK was good for KG4's. Not for Khorns. Think of it like this. Would you put a VW transmission in a Corvette? Because this is a speaker forum, the amp issue is much neglected in favor of far less important things. You've got the speakers; now, get the amp. Crossovers will not do the trick. They might help some, but go back to the qualities in your previous thread that you said you wanted.

You're not going to get there with crossovers. Crossovers are more of a tweak - maybe an important one. But they will not supply the power element you are missing. The punch requires some real power from a clean amp.

And as for the barely audible little bells you want to hear. You'll get them at moderate levels, but not at loud levels. I think once you start blowing down doors, pin drops are a little hard to hear.

1. WHY is my $650 HK receiver not good enough for khorns?

2. WHY is said receiver inferior to an older version selling on ebay for $50-75 bucks or so?

3. What is wrong with my receiver that you're saying it wouldn't have enough power and 'clean' power?

4. Why do you consider my receiver a VW? (actually, LOL what's wrong with VW's?)

(BTW - I said I DID hear the bell on that song. I never heard it before. This is good).

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Don't feel bad. I replaced a $4,000 Denon receiver with a $100 Teac amp. Who knew?

Chris

[meagain]

I don't feel bad, because No one has yet to tell me why my HK receiver is bad and why the old HK's are so much better. Tiger - about your HK630... I think it has 40 wpc? I'm at 65 with a max of 80 and when I want it blazing loud, I'm not too too far from the edge of where it goes. I'm thinking I wouldn't be able to turn a 40 watter up loud enough? Unless I'm missing something. And can I plug everything into it? TV, etc? My Yamaha is sitting on a shelf in the basement because of this. How does one get around this? Same with these tube amps I'm seeing. I see hardly any ports or controls. Heck, I don't even see an 'on' switch or volume on most of the pics. No bass/treble controls? Not to mention a remote.

I'm thinking this Behringer EQ might be the way to go for me. In my mind, no matter what I get - I'd still need this. I can't see being in the position of not being able to control anything, and while we plan to remodel the room around the khorns - don't plan to add panels, etc. in the room.

I'm thinking what good is sinking big bucks into these tube amps if one doesn't have the most pristine listening environment. Would that not be like putting a bandaid on a 3" wide open wound? The problems might still be there right? Then where do you go? Surely tubes wouldn't compensate for any environment issues - right? Seems I should get the EQ, see how it goes, then upgrade later if need be?

But I'd like to hear why these old HK's are better than what I have. Do they have tubes in them? Is that it?

Oh - we got one of those Sonic T amps everyone raves about for some reason. Tried it on the khorns and yanked it in short order. It sounded appalling. Lifeless, flat, tinny, dull, zero bass, zero most everything. It was abysmal. Tried everything we could think of to improve the sound. Plugged them into the HK and it was like "ahhhh". Night & day. That's scarey, and I'm hard pressed to spend several hundreds (or thousands) when I fear I could get a similar letdown?

EDIT: Tiger - I sent you an email.

[tillmbil]

The only way to really know the difference people are talking about are is to actually try them first hand. A much better way to go than the T-amp would be a $40.00 HK430.

Here is how I try and explain headroom, and power:

You are driving along in a four cylinder Toyota going 80mph, no problem. Only the thing is really making some noise and at its top end. You accelerate to pass a car and there is not much there, it is slow and sluggish.

Next you get in your friends corvette. You are on the interstate going 80mph. It can do it just like the Toyota, only it is quite, not working hard and loafing along. You go to pass a car and it jumps ahead, nice and clean. Totally different feel, but they both can do it.

Now with a low powered amp, it clips a little, struggles, maybe breaks up some, but still gets there. Where would you rather be.

The HK has its own motor for each wheel...now thats a different way of describing it.

[Jeff Matthews]

I think now alot of this is my receiver.

Yep!

Your HK was good for KG4's. Not for Khorns. Think of it like this. Would you put a VW transmission in a Corvette? Because this is a speaker forum, the amp issue is much neglected in favor of far less important things. You've got the speakers; now, get the amp. Crossovers will not do the trick. They might help some, but go back to the qualities in your previous thread that you said you wanted.

You're not going to get there with crossovers. Crossovers are more of a tweak - maybe an important one. But they will not supply the power element you are missing. The punch requires some real power from a clean amp.

And as for the barely audible little bells you want to hear. You'll get them at moderate levels, but not at loud levels. I think once you start blowing down doors, pin drops are a little hard to hear.

1. WHY is my $650 HK receiver not good enough for khorns?

2. WHY is said receiver inferior to an older version selling on ebay for $50-75 bucks or so?

3. What is wrong with my receiver that you're saying it wouldn't have enough power and 'clean' power?

4. Why do you consider my receiver a VW? (actually, LOL what's wrong with VW's?)

(BTW - I said I DID hear the bell on that song. I never heard it before. This is good).

1. KHorns handle 100 watts continuous and 400 watt peaks. Remember the boom and punch you wanted. Do you think you'll get more of that with 65 watts through your HK or 200 watts through something else? Don't forget. Bass peaks, too. And, I'll bet you're missing alot of peak differentials once you turn the HK way up. What you have, as I said, will sound decent, but you'd be surprised what sound you get when you've got clean power of 5 times what you're running now. 5x the power does not equate to 5 x the loudness, so I'm not talking way louder. I'm talking somewhat louder but with more dynamics - I guess you could call it "body." The HK will not deliver the power needed to accomplish that. When you crank, your HK strains, and at its limits, it will begin to blend as if there are too many of the same level and not enough peaks and dips. You might not know what the strain sounds like since you haven't heard the difference. The answer would be that it is more dull, monotone and distorted. When I crank with my Crown, it is clean and effortless.... and I don't have to crank it nearly all the way up like you would the HK.

Consider this, you have peaks and lulls in songs. If you are running 60 watts, changing to 300 watts does not change the way the song sounds like you think it might. The lulls are still quiet, but the peaks punch and kick.

Recall I said earlier I used to run a 90 watt/channel Marantz 1180DC through my Corns years ago? Not even the 90 watts could drive the Corns like my Crown.... and that was a very good Marantz among the Marantz line. If it wasn't true, I'd have never quit with the old Marantz and went to the Crown. I do not swap around components. I've had my Corns for 20 years. I've had my Crown for 20 years. I've had my Yamaha pre-amp and Onkyo's for about 19 years. And I was done. Until this year when I bought Klipschorns. From the buying pattern, you ought to see that I would have never left Marantz for Crown except for the serious difference.

2. I didn't know that it was. The original was not my comment.

3. See # 1.

4. Not that VW's are bad. Okay, you just bought speakers that retail for $7500. The HK was never designed with anything near Klipschorns in mind. They built the HK thinking of makes like Bose and Polk. From what I understand, for example, Crown PA amps are used by touring band professionals (I think Sting used Crown, and I am sure other well-known artists did, too). Nobody I know of ever did a concert using HK receivers. Again, that does not mean they are not good. It means they serve decently for the average consumer's living room at the average consumer's levels. Not that you need to change, but if you want to hear the full capability of the sound of the KHorn, you will need to change. If you can't imagine wanting more than you already get out of those KHorns, then, stay where you are. But, to quote a famous band, B-b-b-b-baby, you ain't seen n-n-n-n-nothin' yet!

[meagain]

But see, when I'm going 80mph in this Toyota (cranking WAY up to ear damage levels), I'm not hearing any distortion, noise, laboring/clipping. It's just not there. I can't turn it up higher unless I want things in the house falling off shelves, etc - or trashing my ears. I could if I wanted to. I have only 10 more points on the volume to try if I wanted to, but I did my max. Hubby won't go to my max. So I'm hard-pressed to see why I need more WPC. It just sounds clear & distortion free to our ears at our max tolerable volume. Which is really high. The dynamics are there and I hear zero hiss, etc. Bass is amazing & tight. Maybe if the room was bigger or we were father away from the speakers.

I also re-read TomPreston's, CalBlacksmith's, and Colin's posts here around page 2-3 or so and this makes sense to me? I just don't see needing 300 or so watts if I'm not hearing distortion or anything other than a louder version.

But I can't see going lower in wattage as I see this as downgrading? And I wouldn't get the volume I have now. Yes?

[Jeff Matthews]

Here's a link to the K-1. BIN price of $675. You might recall Duke has a K-2. When you see what the $675 Crown will do compared to your $650 HK, you'll be surprised at what an additional $25 worth of gear sounds like. [] I am sure others make good amps that are comparable to the Crown, but just for grins, try out one of the Crown K series (or Microtech or Macrotech, but the K's look more sleek). You can find these at musicians' stores, like Guitar Center, etc. Maybe, they'd let you try before you buy. Maybe they have a used one for half the price or less. BTW, you need to know that these musicians' stores are serious hagglers. You can haggle for a deeper discount than you might think. Example, I spent $840 for my Microtech 1200, which I think was supposed to be $1200 or so. Also, you need a pre-amp for these. A decent used pre-amp ought to run you $200.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Crown-K1-Audio-Balanced-Current-1500W-Power-Amplifier_W0QQitemZ7377019209QQcategoryZ64451QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem