seti Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Many are the paths to audio enlightenment.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 Ahhhh...it has returned to normalcy...I wrote a long post thanking ALL those who helped and asking that this not be which is better, Tubes or SS as only I can decide which is better to ME...but it disappeared when I went to post (I get the screen jumping all over the place whenever I type here since the change and can't seem to get this settled down!)...I wanted your thoughts and experiences and I got it...thanks...JacksonBart...I was feeling a little ignored until you threw in that last BAH! Thanks all for the help. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 tube camp ss camp never the twain shall meet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Def Leper Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Five pages of remarks and not one single, solid technical fact. This isn't a discussion about the relative technical merits of these technologies, it's a religious debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 yep, and it's a daily event no less Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 I have 3 frames of mind concerning the tube vs. SS issue. First, I think that at a certain level of quality, there will be no discernable difference between the two topologies (that is, if equally well executed). Second, let's consider the output coupling involved, because that's the area of most potential difference. Most SS gear is direct-coupled, and it handles impedance "mismatches" in stride, withing reason of course. Most tube gear on the other hand, uses transformer coupling, and that is less agreeable with impedance "mismatches" (or say a varying reactance at the other end of the speaker wires)... The sound "imparted" by transformer coupling has been debated for decades now, remember the term "notch distortion", ect., from the "good old days"? What about the like the Mc's SS amps which still use an output transformer? Better or not? Third, the issue of distortion(s) comes into play. Some people like the "round" quality produced by overly slow slew rates of some tube gear that effectively "takes the edge off" of waveforms. The "liquid" midrange effect, et cetera. Whether or not the speakers in question can produce an accurate waveform is notwithstanding... So it seems that if we are talking "vintage"-STYLE tube gear (that which exhibits a "rounding" quality to the waveform (like an old Scott or Fisher) or an extremely accurate Krell SS amp which definitely doesn't round things off, it becomes a matter of economics, because the two mentioned examples are not anywhere near equal in price. My conclusion: Within equal price points, I would say that dolloar-for-dollar on the LOW END, the vintage tube gear is clearly higher quality and build than modern SS gear of the same price. I feel that that would certainly influence performance. However, once one gets into the level of Krell, Classe, McIntosh and other SS gear of the "low-end of the high-end" price range (i.e., above $2.5K+), the audible differences start to diminish rapidly (i.e., tube gear like Atmosphere, ARC, etc.). It seems to be a division by price and quality - not topology-based performance. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillmbil Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Horns like tubes like a good subwoofer likes SS power. I have both and they work for different reasons. If you are going to rock out on Jazz or Classical musci read my two-channel rig below and prepare to do war. I can not imagine the sound getting any better. I have not heard anything better yet. I recently went to a Hi Fi store and listened to Usher, Epos and Van something VR4 Juniors and was not overly impressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillbilly Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Most SS gear is direct-coupled, and it handles impedance "mismatches" in stride, withing reason of course. Most tube gear on the other hand, uses transformer coupling, and that is less agreeable with impedance "mismatches" (or say a varying reactance at the other end of the speaker wires)... The sound "imparted" by transformer coupling has been debated for decades now, remember the term "notch distortion", ect., from the "good old days"? What about the like the Mc's SS amps which still use an output transformer? Better or not? Third, the issue of distortion(s) comes into play. Some people like the "round" quality produced by overly slow slew rates of some tube gear that effectively "takes the edge off" of waveforms. The "liquid" midrange effect, et cetera. Whether or not the speakers in question can produce an accurate waveform is notwithstanding... That's what I was talking about. I don't know a hell of alot about it, but my dad told me all about it once. He's an electronics guy and a musician. The difference in sound is not just subjective. I can't imagine screwing around with vinyl. I can't imagine no remote. God bless new technology!!! Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Mind if I interject with probably (another) real stupid question???? If one gets a good pre-amp (say, tubes), is there any value to hooking it up to an amp that's both pre & regular? Or would the pre in the main amp make the added good pre-amp moot? Not sure which one would take over? If a good pre-amp is hooked up, would it override the main amp's pre or vice versa? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 I like to match components, brand wise. Like staying with all Naim, or all Rega. No conflicts that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 tube camp ss camp never the twain shall meet I have to disagree one of my favorite systems (not mine) to listen to has a tube preamp tube phono preamp but solid state amps and it is clean and acurate. : ) You can always find an exception life is to varied and fun to ever settle on one thing live life to the extreme try everything you can while you can. Listening to tom waits right now dam good sounds i sure LOVE MUSIC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 To answer the previous question, when hooking a receiver as pre-out, it will work much like any ordinary pre-amp (in general) is my understanding. I think all pre-amps put out some wattage - if I recall correctly. Also, a previous comment concerning tubes was made that tubes are better than SS until you start spending around $2500. For reasons addressed earlier (and my $800 Crown) I disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Maybe this is a good time to read these... http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/tinyhistory1.html http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/FindingCG.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 I used tubes from 1950 thru 1985 and the only thing that impressed me about them was how bad they were after I converted to SS. I used tubes on the Dewline Troposcatter heavy com and radar systems by the bushel full and was extrtemely thankful when the conversion started to SS. What a sigh of relief when the first GE SS taxi cab vehicle radios were installed. Those radios reduced maintenance by about 99.9 %. What a sigh of relief when the test equipment was upgraded to Hewlett-Packard stuff. We used some pretty exotic stuff and the calibrations would hold for 6 months instead of 1 day. What a sigh of relief when the Air/Ground radios were upgraded to SS. Reduced maintenance by about 95% What a sigh of relief when you didn't have to wait 4 hours for equipment to warm up and settle in for optimum performance. If I had saved all of those rotton tubes that went out in bushel baskets I could have sold them to all of you tube nuts and been a millionaire. JJK Give me a break........ Home audio is not mission critical and if tube gear is of high quality and in good working order reliabilty is not a issue. Yes tube gear requires more care then SS but so what. The now returned too posting "Mike Lindsay" is a classic example I rebuilt his 299 4 years ago and he has had it in service without even a tube replacement for that entire time as far as I know. Yes some are not so lucky and many times this can be traced right back to the user treating there tube gear like SS (turning it on/off a dozen times a day and so on) Also IT DOES NOT REQUIRE 4 HOURS FOR TUBE GEAR TO SOUND GOOD that is a complete LIE!! Both my systsem sound 100% listenable in 3 minutes max. Yes they sound better after a half hour but its not like you can't listen to them before that becasue they sound bad. Sounds to me like you had some awful condition tube gear or your just fishing to be flamed. Craig I was going to jump on this comment but you beat me to it. Car radios, radar and aviation communications pertinant? That is one heck of a stretch at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 Horns like tubes like a good subwoofer likes SS power. I have both and they work for different reasons. If you are going to rock out on Jazz or Classical musci read my two-channel rig below and prepare to do war. I can not imagine the sound getting any better. I have not heard anything better yet. I recently went to a Hi Fi store and listened to Usher, Epos and Van something VR4 Juniors and was not overly impressed. I have never heard TILLIMBILs system. I hav heard every component he owns in combination with LaScalas. I particulary can identify with the "prepare to do war" reference! You may not ever see that "figure of speech " in a tight butt audio magazine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 "Horns like tubes like a good subwoofer likes SS power. I have both and they work for different reasons. If you are going to rock out on Jazz or Classical musci read my two-channel rig below and prepare to do war. I can not imagine the sound getting any better. I have not heard anything better yet. I recently went to a Hi Fi store and listened to Usher, Epos and Van something VR4 Juniors and was not overly impressed." I think horns like what we individually prefer in terms of how the component designs we have chosen for our systems changes or colors musical signals in ways we find pleasing. The sound colorations produced by the system you have compiled may not get any better for you, however I would offer that the same reproduced product (music sound quality/characteristic), in terms of the aesthetic or sound preferences of someone else, might be perceived as falling significantly short. Please note: I'm not in any way saying your system is lacking, but rather that you have simply arrived at a combination of components that work well together for your specific tastes and needs. Similarly, that you were not overly impressed by what you heard and saw at the Hi Fi store, does not mean the products you mentioned were of inherently poor quality. It means they didn't color the sound the way your own system does, which is what you prefer. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LousyTourist Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 It would seem to me that most tube lovers started out with SS, spent years with SS, and eventually 'discovered' tubes. Most SS lovers, on the other hand, have very limited experience with tubes, possibly hearing some here and there, but nothing on the order of living with them for years before 'discovering' SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steamer Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 Maybe this is a good time to read these... http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/tinyhistory1.html http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/FindingCG.html Very good read,thanks Pauln! Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 I think the original question was about sound and not technical merits. I am sure that from a technical basis ss wins hands down. That doesnt mean that it sounds good. I am sure there are techincal reasons why new guitars should sound better than my 68 Martin but the fact is they dont. Same could be said for my Fender Twin. or my 62 Telecaster. For some reason they are more musical than current offereings. The same is true for me with tube equipment. I find the vintage gear more musical than the modern tube offereings and much more so than ss. For some reason the exception is with preamps. I have not heard a vntage preamp that compares to current offerings - must be some technical reason for that! Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 28, 2006 Share Posted January 28, 2006 It would seem to me that most tube lovers started out with SS, spent years with SS, and eventually 'discovered' tubes. Most SS lovers, on the other hand, have very limited experience with tubes, possibly hearing some here and there, but nothing on the order of living with them for years before 'discovering' SS. That may be your experience, but if we go back and take a look in history we had tube amps before SS. And I can think of a lot of old guys that lived for years with tubes, that were reluctant to move to SS, and ended moving to them anyway purely for audible reasons... And you can get really good SS for cheap...dunno what all this talk is about multi-thousand dollar units. I can also think of quite a few other variables that make a much larger difference...like impedance "matching" throughout the signal path (which involves source to preamp, preamp to amp, amp to speaker, speaker to room - all are imedance issues). And then you've got all sorts of acoustical considerations to make too. I have no doubt that people with TT's and tubes think an SS amp sounds like crap when they drop it into the signal path and I have no doubt that they enjoy their sound too. And it has every bit as much to do with the interaction between the equipment and the "quality" of the source material. And the reason the TT/tube world thinks you have to have an insanely expensive amplifier is because it is only the esoteric niche markets that build SS amplifiers targeted for integrating well with those kinds of signals. And that's why I think some of those expensive amps are a waste of time....because in the other alternatives to audio they don't mate well with the other kinds of equipment and source material. So all that to say, start with your own source material and build your system up around it. And that means you're better off taking advice from people with similar musical taste and listening habits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.