Tubes better than SS??? BAH!

[Duke Spinner]

make a much larger difference...like impedance "matching" throughout the signal path (which involves source to preamp, preamp to amp, amp to speaker, speaker to room - all are imedance issues).

I have no doubt that people with TT's and tubes think an SS amp sounds like crap when they drop it into the signal path and I have no doubt that they enjoy their sound too. And it has every bit as much to do with the interaction between the equipment

succinct, and to the Point, Who ....[]

[pauln]

make a much larger difference...like impedance "matching" throughout the signal path (which involves source to preamp, preamp to amp, amp to speaker, speaker to room - all are imedance issues).

I have no doubt that people with TT's and tubes think an SS amp sounds like crap when they drop it into the signal path and I have no doubt that they enjoy their sound too. And it has every bit as much to do with the interaction between the equipment

succinct, and to the Point, Who ....[]

But perhaps making the incorrect inference - you are assuming that the TT/tube crowd is getting by with an inferior source thereby needing more exotic power. I think rather that the SS really does sound like crap and the inferior digital sources are a fit match for that crappiness.

[Duke Spinner]

Paul ...

You completely misunderstood that post by Who................[:S]

[SilverSport]

I thought the Doc just meant that sound is dependant on components and their interaction with each other to sound "good."

Bill

[Chicago_Pete]

Hi Bill,

If you want to stop by and borrow one of my Mac 225's you are more than welcome. Decide for yourself before spending a dime. I think you will hear a lot more in your music.

Regards, Pete

[pauln]

Help me out, what do you think this means?

I have no doubt that people with TT's and tubes think an SS amp sounds like crap when they drop it into the signal path and I have no doubt that they enjoy their sound too.

This implies that SS are not particularly suited to records?

And it has every bit as much to do with the interaction between the equipment and the "quality" of the source material.

Because the records are an inferior source?

And the reason the TT/tube world thinks you have to have an insanely expensive amplifier is because it is only the esoteric niche markets that build SS amplifiers targeted for integrating well with those kinds of signals.

Those kind of signals that dominated the industry until digital in the early 80's?

And that's why I think some of those expensive amps are a waste of time....because in the other alternatives to audio they don't mate well with the other kinds of equipment and source material.

This implies that SS suited to records are not so for CDs? So what changed? Have non esoteric niche SS never been suited for records, or has this only happened since the onset of CDs? If so, what kind of change in a SS amp made to sound good with CDs make it sound bad with records? And visa versa? Maybe I am confused here.

[jt1stcav]

Five pages of remarks and not one single, solid technical fact. This isn't a discussion about the relative technical merits of these technologies, it's a religious debate.

That's probably because there are no facts anywhere that proves that tubes are better than SS (and visa-versa). There is no single best topology anywhere, regardless to what the manufacturers say IMO!

[triceratops]

I've been off the Forum for a while getting trained for a new job. I got a raise that I've already spent on more audio equipment I don't need!

I was impressed with the equipment shootout GaryMD and friends did last year, so I've started accumulating amps and preamps to do some listening comparisons out here in the west. Some of the gear is tube and some is SS. I figure I'll listen to it in different combinations for a few months and see what happens. So far the pile includes: MC 225 (PP tube), MC 240 (PP Tube), Welborne DRD 300B Monos (SET), Threshold S150 (Pass design SS Class AB), Forte 3 (Pass design SS Class AB), Forte 1A (Pass Design SS Class A), Eico HF-81 tube Integrated, Threshold FET One SS Preamp, Mac MX-110 tube tuner/preamp, Mac C-20 tube Preamp, Voice of Music tube integrateds, and a bunch of Japanese solid state stuff (Denon, Nakamichi, Kenwood, etc).

I admit the variety is thin--too much McIntosh tube gear and too much Nelson Pass SS stuff--but hey, it'll be fun anyway. Now I just gotta get that listening room done...

To all those on this thread who are happy with the sound of their system--you are fortunate! I always seem to hear the problems in my system, and I think it is much better to be satisfied and just enjoy the music!

Best in horns,

triceratops

[DrWho]

Ya, you missed the point Paul []

Btw, I put "quality" in quotation marks because I meant this definition of the word:
1 a : peculiar and essential character : NATURE <her ethereal quality -- Gay Talese> b : an inherent feature : PROPERTY <had a quality of stridence, dissonance -- Roald Dahl>
(from m-w.com) as opposed to the defintion of performance.

I guess to put it into one sentence, I'm talking about the interaction between the gear - in essence, the overall transport function of the signal path. I wasn't trying to imply anything. I was just pointing out that a lot of people will drop a different amp into their signal path and then disregard it because it made things sound bad...But it doesn't mean that particular amp is at fault, nor does it imply the rest of the system is at fault either. The equipment in question simply didn't integrate well together.

[SilverSport]

Special thanks to MarkBK and Chicago_Pete for the VERY kind offers to let me listen and audition in my own home their tube stuff [] ...MORE than kind offer...I think for right now, I will continue to play with the McIntosh MA-6200 I have (just found out that I have been using the variable loudness wrong as it is different than my previous Nakamichi and Yamaha stuff) and heard more mid and low frequencies without touching the equalizer in the unit.

Thanks to everyone for the input and information...it has been a great help.

I believe the only way I can make an informed opinion on this is to try it in my own home, perhaps after listening to it elsewhere to see whether I even want to audition it in my home...

I will continue to "read up" on the subject here and elsewhere but I know at this stage of my life...FOR ME... I don't want to be waiting for things to warm up or biasing the tubes etc. etc...I know that this needs only to be done on SOME tube stuff but I will cross that bridge later.

Thanks for ALL the information and all the kind and generous offers...I never intended to start a tube v. SS war, I just wanted to get some information from those who did or decided not to make the switch (one way or the other) and why...before I took this to the next step...

Thanks,

Bill

[meagain]

Oh darn. I was looking forward to hearing your review.

[seti]

This hobby has so many variables that it can make you dizzy.

Speakers / crossovers / tube amps / tubes / solid state amps / monoblocks / integrated amps / tube preamps / solid state preamps / phono stages / turntables / cd players / tube cd players / analog tape / room acoustics / room treatments / cables / power. The list could go on and if you happen to pick a combo that works for you god bless.

Its also very subjective hell some people hate horns. I had a guy over the other night that said I love your tube gear but I hate horns but it sounds really good man. I just stood there blinking and confused at the contradictions expressed.

If your system captivates you and makes you want to listen to more music then be happy.

LOVE MUSIC

[MarkBK]

Bill,

Your welcome and the offer stands whenever you so inclined to listen to tubes! All that matters - is how you hear your system - after all, in the end, it should be about the MUSIC - NOT the gear.

Mark

[tillmbil]

I know what you mean about hearing weaknesses in your system. I seem to think other peoples systems sound really good sometimes when at there house. Strange, but it just seems like you have done so much to your system, and the difference can be so slight. That is until you bring your favorite music and listen for the same great sound. When, or if, you do realize yours sounds better by a certain margine, you then wonder if it is just becasue it doesn't sound like what you are used to hearing at home.

Ah...that is this musical journey we are on. The true phrase is "just enjoy the music".

The speakers I heard were I listened too were Von Sweikert or Vandersteen VR4 Jrs. Still get the names mixed up. They retail for about $3500 and the store had them hooked up to some Huge set mono amps. Had a $3000 CD player, and No it was not the coloring that made mine sound better Eric. It was the detail, blackness, and tighter bass that made the difference. I can discern between coloring, and detail.

[aviserated]

The better sounding vintage tubes (non counterfit versions) are very expensive IF you can find them and trust the seller. My cheap, bright, and shouty sounding chinese tube amp needs some vintage Mullards to correct the problem I here.

[garymd]

"As somewhat indicated above, this is not so much a sound issue (most don't hear or don't care), it's a convenience issue. "Where's the remote? I don't want to have to do anything to enjoy myself... get up and clean and flip a record? Are you crazy? Where's the remote?". In addition to the convenience issue, this is an educational issue. "I want it to have instant-on perfect reliability (and I don't even know how bad a sound I'm accepting for this). I don't want to have to do math, understand physics and engineering, much less electronics, music or psychology. Where's the remote, I need more slam!". In all seriousness, this is the difference between driving a fine sports car and a family sedan. Yes, the sports car needs its engine and suspension tuned periodically, and you have to go through the inconvenience of clutching and shifting the transmission. Some of us enjoy this, think about how to improve execution, and use our wits and skills to actively persue it. Other don't care, which is fine. I enjoy cleaning and flipping records, cueing the tonearm, keeping an eye and ear on the condition of my sylus and tubes, and listening to music. I like walking back to search by hand through my record collection to select the next one I play (yeah, the whole record). I like the fact that the volume control in on the preamp (not a remote). I like the idea that I have a box of spare tubes on standby. I even like graphing load lines. If I did not care a wit about the sound of music SS would be fine. But being me, I will never stray from vinyl, tubes, and horns. Pauln ========= What a cool post! Thanks Paul. I wish I had written that. I've taken to telling potential customers lately a similar story; if you are not wanting to be a little more "involved" with your gear and music, this is NOT for you. Your comments on remote just had me rolling for sure. There is clearly a huge difference between the buyer of a vinyl/tube/horn rig than there is with the far more common "audio enthusiast" who may even spend more money. It's not the money. These different buyers represent wholly different aesthetics approaches to music reproduction itself. No, that's not a put down of either type of person, it's just an acknowledgement that there are really two very DIFFERENT worlds out there, but they use the same language to talk about it what they think is the same thing. It's a bit like comparing the buyer of a 1954 MGTC to the buyer of a new Mustang convertible. Both may chat about "sports cars" but each is talking about a different cosmos all together. md

Well said, both of you.

Although I am technically challenged (to say the least), I still enjoy tube rolling, cleaning and playing albums, scouring thrift shops, etc. I just spent 2 weeks without vinyl because I couldn't believe FOUR different 6DJ8 tubes were not compatible with my preamp. Tonight however, I'm happy as a pig in sh1t because everything is working, it sounds incredible and I have about 6 new LPs to play that I've acquired over the past 2 weeks.

Life is good. Expensive but good.[]

[ben.]

So... should I read the last seven pages?

[NOSValves]

Well said, both of you.

Although I am technically challenged (to say the least), I still enjoy tube rolling, cleaning and playing albums, scouring thrift shops, etc. I just spent 2 weeks without vinyl because I couldn't believe FOUR different 6DJ8 tubes were not compatible with my preamp. Tonight however, I'm happy as a pig in sh1t because everything is working, it sounds incredible and I have about 6 new LPs to play that I've acquired over the past 2 weeks.

Life is good. Expensive but good.[]

No way not with current production tubes []

[laurenc319]

Hi,

Is a 6dj8 a better preamp tube then a 6sn7 ?

Larry

[ben.]

Absolutely.

Well, at least in a Blueberry. I tried putting a 6SL7 in there and I chipped a tooth in the process! I can't believe the manual didn't warn me against it... Tube rollin my arse...