Klipschorn woes...

[TitanTough]

Greetings fellow Audiophiles,

I'm new to the forum as of tonight, though I'm a long time Klipsch fan. I have a bit of a dilemma, and a somewhat blasphemous fix that I'm getting ready to try - but I would greatly appreciate some feedback and advice from those of you who are intimate with the accoustic nature of the Klipschorn's.

I just moved into a new house not long ago... a classic 1940's long low ranch style Frank Lloyd Wright beauty. The living room has vaulted ceilings, hard-wood floors, and floor-to-ceiling windows flanking both sides of the main wall. I'm sure you can see where this is going....

In addition, I don't have a flat wall for the back-wall... there is a columnar stone fireplace in the center of the room (the front of which I have converted into a raised-couch for auditorium style seating when I roll the loveseat over http://www.dreamre.com/rea/klipsch/stadiumseats.jpg).

An amusing side-note; it has cast-iron hot-water-circulated radiant heat baseboards along nearly every wall (common in Europe, but not so much the US). The beauty of that, is that the notches cut from the grills on either side of the Klipschorns are made-to-order to (almost) precision for this (non--standard) size of baseboard heating... so it almost feels like that because the house and the original K-Horns are from the early 1940's - they were made for each-other. http://www.dreamre.com/rea/klipsch/baseboard_notch.jpg

My problem as I'm sure you've figured out by now, is that I have entirely too much window (double-paned contemporary \ sealed weatherized windows)... no seal against the wall (or windows), vaulted ceilings, and no back wall for reflection. So while my Klipschorns sound pristine on the mid to high ranges, they have absolute squat for low end richness.

Adding some links to pictures so that you'll be able to more clearly articulate my problems...

The left front: http://www.dreamre.com/rea/klipsch/leftfront.jpg

Right front: http://www.dreamre.com/rea/klipsch/RightFrontDistant.jpg

Center Column fireplace in back: http://www.dreamre.com/rea/klipsch/centercolumn.jpg

A close-up of the right front dilemma: http://www.dreamre.com/rea/klipsch/rightfrontwindows.jpg

So... a few questions if you will:

1) Boarding up the windows is out of the question, even partially... so what if I boarded up the back of the K-Horn? Just tack on a solid piece of wood to either side that will reflect whatever bass forward that would otherwise be reflected by the wall?

2) Would putting a very large area-rug on the hardwood floor help or hinder? (Just groking for opinions before lying $300 down on a nice rug only to find it wasn't worth it).

3) Should I forget trying to modify the K-Horns or the walls, and compensate for the lack of low-frequencies with a sub? If so... I'm open to reccomendations as to a make\model that would compliment.

and finally... I'm finding that *ANY* level of DTS, SRS, or Dolby Pro Logic processing on the Klipschorns grossly insults the audio quality. Has anyone had experience with this, or can you link me to any threads where this has been discussed? I enjoy the clarity of the virgin signal to the K-Horns, but I also enojy the special effects when watching movies.

Thanks in advance for your insight and help!

Gregory

[Duke Spinner]

nooo problem ....

you need to construct false corners.....and you'll be set...[]

i tried the search....[]

has somebody got a link to that thread .??

[JJkizak]

I believe Dean had a thread on constructing false corners 4 ft on each side.

JJK

[ricktate]

Also on the hard floor i would pull those factory metal slidders off and get Grippers from wally world HDBR had me try this idea and i think it helps alot.Also if you go look at my K-Horn project thread you can see the flase wall i made for mine it seems to work fine i used 90 degree brackets and wing nuts so i could remove if i needed to.Looks like you got one good wall is it sealed with pipe foam ???Rick

[oscarsear]

Just curious. Seems as though this gentlemen has an additional problem unique to his situation; a view. Has anyone ever constructed false corners out of plexiglass or lexan to accommodate visual clarity and sound??

[colterphoto1]

Cornwalls.

But isn't that baseboard radient heat wonderful!

[Dflip]

Here is the info on False corners from the Dope from Hope publications from Klipsch, vol 15 No. 5

[PrestonTom]

Gregory,

Congrats on the house and the K-Horns.

Certainly the false corners are going to help. Don't be put off by how they look. There are a number of variations on the design and with a bit of creativity you can get them to have a compatible look with the rest of the room.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[artto]

I dont mean to rain on your parade, but that is not a Frank Lloyd Wright house. Perhaps you meant FLW style house. But I would go so far as to say that it is not even a Frank Lloyd Wright style house. Its simply a ranch. Second is the Klipschorn wasnt in production until 1946, post WWII, so those cant possibly be early 40s Khorns.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Now that Im done ranting..on to the important stuff.

Question #1, Like Duke said.false corners, do a Forum search, there should be plenty of info.

Question #2 Experiment. You have vaulted ceilings, which is good, which may negate some of the need for acoustic damping on the floor. You might want to go to a local carpet place & ask if they have any rug remnants that you could take off their hands. You might get them for free, or at worst, for very little money. You can easily move these around, pile them up, whatever, and compare the differences in sound, and throw them out when youre done if you want to. Also, not having a reflective rear wall is probably a good thing too.

Question #3 Forget the sub for now. IMO subs are very difficult to match up with Khorns. Some people use them for HT when using Khorns & here I can see the point where you want/need that exaggerated bass for theatrical impact.

Welcome to the Forum []

[ricktate]

I think since you only need the false corner to the top of the base bin it would add mass and be stronger to just lay the 2x4 down and interlock them into the corner then add sheet rock.Then fasten a 3/4 inch plywood on bottom to sit K-Horn on, i bet that would make one solid false corner.You might even try it with 2x2 boards to make it thinner ,i think im going to try the 2x2 one.Rick

[pmsummer]

Also on the hard floor i would pull those factory metal slidders off and get Grippers from wally world HDBR had me try this idea and i think it helps alot.Also if you go look at my K-Horn project thread you can see the flase wall i made for mine it seems to work fine i used 90 degree brackets and wing nuts so i could remove if i needed to.Looks like you got one good wall is it sealed with pipe foam ???Rick

Grippers from Wal-Mart? More info, please.

[gaspr]

Hi Titan

Looks like a bit of a problem allright. I really don't

think you would be happy with the way false corners would look

like in your very nice room. The problem being that proper false

corners should extend out from the speakers roughly twelve to sixteen

inches...might not be too pretty. This may not be an option for

you but two or three Lascala's or Belles across the front, along

with a good subwoofer should give you sound very close to properly

cornered Khorns.

Good luck to ya

Garth

[ricktate]

Grippers are like felt furniture pads but different....HDBR had me try them. I was in a hurry that day so i didnt A-B them but it did sound better i think.Unlike spikes which transfer vibration to the floor, Grippers isolate the speaker while hooking the speaker to the floor.I used them first on my Scalas then got them for all of my speakers.They sre cheap and easy to try let us know what you think.I have not heard from anyone else trying this maybe they got carpet...or maybe they dont think it works but why not try it prove it or disprove it.Rick

[pmsummer]

Grippers are like felt furniture pads but different....HDBR had me try them.

Thanks, Rick.

So, is "Grippers" a brand name?

[greg928gts]

I dont mean to rain on your parade, but that is not a Frank Lloyd Wright house. Perhaps you meant FLW style house. But I would go so far as to say that it is not even a Frank Lloyd Wright style house. Its simply a ranch. Second is the Klipschorn wasnt in production until 1946, post WWII, so those cant possibly be early 40s Khorns.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

LOL artto, I thought the same thing.

It's a fine room though, except for the lack of proper corners for the Khorns.

I don't think the lack of a back wall is really a problem, might even be better.

You mention the surround processing affecting the sound of the Khorns. I have noticed the same thing. Which is why I only use my Khorns for two-channel music listening. I have another Klipsch system for the surround sound. IMO, Khorns are overkill for sitting down and watching a movie, certainly if you are going to do that with a woman present. That goes for most women anyway, I'm sure there are exceptions. With my woman, the first time a loud scene comes across the surround and jumps her, I get the "look". Movies with the surround too loud is just plain irritating.

If you're going to use the Khorns in a surround system, yes, you'll need a subwoofer, and a damn good one at that. It is very difficult to integrate a subwoofer into a Khorn system for two-channel music listening.

You need good corners for Khorns. I like your idea of adding wood to the sides of the Khorns, and in theory, I don't know why that wouldn't work, as long as the sides were well braced. Really well braced to the carcus of the Khorn bass bin.

Then there's always Michael's idea, Cornwalls.

Greg

[Rudy81]

I can promise you, from personal experience, that without proper corners, your Khorns will not sound properly at all. Been there , done that. I ended up constructing false corners and they sound fantastic. In my HT setup, I use an SVS 20-39 PC+ sub and it does a very nice job of complimenting the Khorns. I have my sub set to pick up 80Hz and below. I generally use the sub for movies and every blue moon I have it supplement the Khorns for two channel listening. However, you will have to spend some time setting the phase alignment on the sub as well as setting the gain so that it sounds natural.

Based on the description of your room, you have your work cut out for you in treating that room for acoustics. The ceiling will help, but with all the windows and wood floors you probably have a very live room.

I would agree that you probably need a rug to help acoustics, and if you could swing it, drapes would help the room. Try this experiment. On a nice day do a listening session with the windows closed and then with the windows open. You will most likely hear quite a differance. I might suggest F. Alton Everest's book "Master Handbook of Acoustics" to help you decide how to tame that room.

[sunnysal]

here are my two cents.

There is "optimum" and there is "works fine for me" a pair of false corners built to Klipsch specs will get you great performance from the k-horns, you will not miss "real" corners. You can finish them anyway that best matches your decor (paint, stain, etc.).

However if you cannot stand the wings coming out 48" from the corner (as spec'd by Klipsch) then you can simply seal the sides with wood as you mentioned. I have tried my k-horns with no corners, partial corners and false corners and can tell you each was a little better in the bass than the previous.

Go with what looks acceptable to you in your space. I little EQ can bump up the bass a bit if you go for partial corners.

best of luck,

tony

[SilverSport]

when I was rebuilding my K'Horns...previous owner did NOT love them...to the new AK-4 networks and all new drivers...I originally had these speakers in the middle of the floor...right next to each other...they sounded grand...now, not perfect, not near as nice as they sound now but WOW!...(I thought)...once I moved them into proper corners, the bass resounds through the house...LOVE the sound of K'Horns and leaves me a little disappointed in the Heresys I have in other systems but...that's not fair...get the K'Horns if you want them and enjoy...just my .02

Bill

[SilverSport]

when I was rebuilding my K'Horns...previous owner did NOT love them...to the new AK-4 networks and all new drivers...I originally had these speakers in the middle of the floor...right next to each other...they sounded grand...now, not perfect, not near as nice as they sound now but WOW!...(I thought)...once I moved them into proper corners, the bass resounds through the house...LOVE the sound of K'Horns and leaves me a little disappointed in the Heresys I have in other systems but...that's not fair...get the K'Horns if you want them and enjoy...just my .02...(by the way, I do NOT have a "proper" room for my K'Horns...there is a closet in the middle of the room and it is right in the "sweet spot" but...I can put on some nice music, walk up to my "computer room" and listen to those beautiful K'Horns!)

Bill