The Goal of A Good Tube Preamp?

[meagain]

I'm playing around here with tube preamps. Thinking about this....

Am I right in thinking that a good preamp is one that doesn't impart it's own 'vibe' on the music but creates as pure & clean a slate as possible so that the onus is on the actual tubes to produce the sound quality/type/tone of the music?

And am I right in thinking with a lesser preamp, it might mask what the tubes bring to the table and hence when switching tubes - there would be less drama when switching tubes because said lesser preamp might impose more of a vibe/sonic signature on the playing field before tubes are even added to the mix? One that cannot be tweaked my mere tube changing?

Do I have this about right?

[Jeff Matthews]

I don't think so - not after all the recent threads. What I gather - and whoever said this deserves the credit for it - is that there are all kinds of distortions. Different tubes make different distortion. Different SS topologies (etc, whatever the lingo, bla, bla, bla). The saying was "pick your poison."

In other words, you might not like an "uncolored" music as much as you like music that has been "colored" a certain way. But whatever you like, there will always be someone who likes it the other way around.

It reminds me of what I said here before about me telling my nephew to bring a CD he liked so he could hear it jam on my new KHorns. When I put the "headbanger" CD in, I was about floored and refused to crank that crap through my KHorns. But he likes it, so......

[NOSValves]

I don't think so - not after all the recent threads. What I gather - and whoever said this deserves the credit for it - is that there are all kinds of distortions. Different tubes make different distortion. Different SS topologies (etc, whatever the lingo, bla, bla, bla). The saying was "pick your poison."

In other words, you might not like an "uncolored" music as much as you like music that has been "colored" a certain way. But whatever you like, there will always be someone who likes it the other way around.

It reminds me of what I said here before about me telling my nephew to bring a CD he liked so he could hear it jam on my new KHorns. When I put the "headbanger" CD in, I was about floored and refused to crank that crap through my KHorns. But he likes it, so......

Jeff you really have a uncanny way of getting things completely screwed up.

[Jeff Matthews]

IIRC THD for most speakers is nowhere near 10% to 20%, more like 2% to 3% typically. The good thing is that THD is not what the ear notices most, but IM distortion. That said, the distortion from speakers does indeed swamp the distortion of most modern amplifiers. But, then, different folks like different kinds of distortion. Some folks like the distortion of Klipsch Heritage speakers. Some prefer the distortion of Klipsch Reference speakers. Some folks prefer the distortion from tubes amps and some prefer the distortion from SS amps. Heck, the tubies argue over which brand of tube produces the most pleasant distortion. But who cares. Pick the kind of distortion you prefer and enjoy your system.

It was Malcolm that said the foregoing, and it made some sense to me. I might have an uncanny way of screwing things up, but it is a genuine effort.

Is there something wrong with applying Malcolm's reasoning to Meagain's question?

[Gilbert]

Start digging back a few weeks, and look for Mark Deneen's response to a tube question. It was the best most logical response to this question I'd ever heard.

If the SEARCH FUNCTION was working (Anybody Out There Listening??????), I'd locate it for you, but since it's not, let your fingers do the typing.

[IB Slammin]

I don't think so - not after all the recent threads. What I gather - and whoever said this deserves the credit for it - is that there are all kinds of distortions. Different tubes make different distortion. Different SS topologies (etc, whatever the lingo, bla, bla, bla). The saying was "pick your poison."

In other words, you might not like an "uncolored" music as much as you like music that has been "colored" a certain way. But whatever you like, there will always be someone who likes it the other way around.

It reminds me of what I said here before about me telling my nephew to bring a CD he liked so he could hear it jam on my new KHorns. When I put the "headbanger" CD in, I was about floored and refused to crank that crap through my KHorns. But he likes it, so......

Jeff you really have a uncanny way of getting things completely screwed up.

I agree. He put out the line in another thread, and I bit. My bad.

regards,

Terry

[IB Slammin]

I'm playing around here with tube preamps. Thinking about this....

Am I right in thinking that a good preamp is one that doesn't impart it's own 'vibe' on the music but creates as pure & clean a slate as possible so that the onus is on the actual tubes to produce the sound quality/type/tone of the music?

And am I right in thinking with a lesser preamp, it might mask what the tubes bring to the table and hence when switching tubes - there would be less drama when switching tubes because said lesser preamp might impose more of a vibe/sonic signature on the playing field before tubes are even added to the mix? One that cannot be tweaked my mere tube changing?

Do I have this about right?

Meagster,

I require much power and SS type head-room to slam the bottoms of my ba@tard Cornwalls with minimal distortion. The JMA tube preamp tames the SS beast. Pulls everything together for me. Best of both worlds IMHO. Using larger SS power amps to do what I like, a nice little tube preamp is a true "controller". For me, SPL is not about the type of music that one listens to. Be it Bach, Beck, or Jeff Beck, I require concert volumes. If my "stuff" will not allow me to listen to concert volumes, (98-110db's) ....Well, I need to get some different "stuff".

Just my 2c for tube preamps.

Warm Regards,

tc

[dbflash]

The goal of a preamp is to adjust the volume either up or down and select the source.

It should not add anything to the sound.

My CDP has volume control so I can hook it up straight to my amps bypassing the need for a preamp.

I can't tell the difference when I have the CDP hooked straight into my amps or if I am running it thru my Peach.

I think Mark achived the goal of a good preamp.

Danny

[meagain]

My CDP has volume control so I can hook it up straight to my amps bypassing the need for a preamp.

That's NICE! What is it?

[NOSValves]

My CDP has volume control so I can hook it up straight to my amps bypassing the need for a preamp.

That's NICE! What is it?

Here we go remote...anyone got a remote []

[NOSValves]

The goal of a preamp is to adjust the volume either up or down and select the source. It should not add anything to the sound. My CDP has volume control so I can hook it up straight to my amps bypassing the need for a preamp. I can't tell the difference when I have the CDP hooked straight into my amps or if I am running it thru my Peach. I think Mark achived the goal of a good preamp. Danny

Are you serious about this Danny? You hear absolutely no difference between CD direct and with the Peach? I'm surprised to say the least. You really should hear something good or bad.

Craig

[ben.]

...For me, SPL is not about the type of music that one listens to. Be it Bach, Beck, or Jeff Beck, I require concert volumes. If my "stuff" will not allow me to listen to concert volumes, (98-110db's) ....Well, I need to get some different "stuff".

Just my 2c for tube preamps.

Warm Regards,

tc

Point taken regarding an amp that can do all you require, but JSB at 100dB? Really!?

[dbflash]

The CDP is a Heart 6000.

I really can't tell that much of a difference and to me its not worth it.

The Heart comes with a remote, but if I don't remember to turn the volume down before I power it off it powers up with the last volume, kinda of like the car radio.

When I power down my system I always turn the pre volume all the way down because I can see the big knob before I hit the off button.

I know the pre is another piece in the chain, but I've done everything I could to make it "invisible". I bought the "best IC's" I could afford IMHO and I am going to order PS Audio Power Cable for both the pre and VRD's.

I know cables make no difference so lets not even go there.

I just know from what I have heard in my house the Peach, VRD's and Khorns stay. I am thinking about upgrading the CDP. I want to get either a Classe, Lector or if I can really talk myself into it Audio Note CD2/II and a signature 3.1 DAC. But to do this I am going to have to give up eating for awhile.

Danny

[LarryC]

FWIW, I've not rolled tubes, mostly because the manufacturers of my last two preamps seem to have been careful about hand-selecting them for THEIR circuitry (plus my current Joule has some unusual ones that I haven't seen discussed on the forum). Is tube selection necessarily separate from the rest of the circutry?

A preamp is a necessity for me because it's a central convenient switching station between the LPP, CDP, and tuner, and has a tape record/monitor loop for making and listening to cassette tape recordings and a pair of jacks for phono resistance loading for MC cartridges. All very important IMO.

Preamps tend to have different sonic signatures, which is one basis for making your selection. My previous CAT had a very pure, sweet midrange, but was weak in the bass, had only 2 line inputs plus a tape loop, and a limited range at the bottom of its volume control. I've heard Gary's Xtreme in my system, and believe Mark's JM line is excellent for all these needs and parameters.

Larry

[meagain]

Meagain--- I read your question 5 times and I am still not sure I am interpreting your meaning. You MIGHT be asking this: should different tubes (in a preamp) be allowed to show their individual personality or not? Can you explain your question in another way? md

Yea, basically that's my question.... If say, you have 2 different preamps. In one, you tube roll and with each roll, there is a subtle difference. A minor tweak if you will. Preamp two - when you tube roll, each set of tubes offers a dramatic difference allowing more autonomy over your desired end result sound.

Wouldn't preamp two be the more desireable.

Mark - Can you tell me what are the stock tubes a Peach comes with?

[meagain]

Mark - I thought so. That's good. Thanks!

The Peach came with the EI gold pins, Groove Tubes, and Amperex somethings. I'm 'just' starting to listen to everything now after delays due to home disasters. I find these Groove tubes flat out suck. I need to try them again cuz I can't imagine they are really as awful as they seemed. They were the first ones I put in and I've only stuck the others in very briefly. Massive difference/improvement.

I like this business of being able to control the vibe with various tubes. I like having this control. It's sort of like putting an EQ, mixing board, etc. on the system to tweak as you like. This, of course, will drive me nuts.

[Gilbert]

YOU DA MAN!!

[Daddy Dee]

Ok, so now I understand your question. I'd say some designs intend to eliminate tube differences, and some intend to maximize them. Both are of course valid approaches, just different ideas that lead to very different products. In my own products we let the tube "itself" dominate the final signature, and so choosing tubes creates the final product. The original tubes we ship with Peach are the EI Elite gold pins. These tubes sound somewhat "in the middle" between the spectrum of available tubes. If one doesn't mind some tube rolling, it does allow a final bit of tailoring to suit taste.

md

Mark,

If you are still tracking on this thread, I was wondering if you could say more about the different amp products. It is most interesting that some designs would minimize the signature of different tubes and others would let the character of the tube dominate the final signature.

What sorts of things would make this kind of a difference in an amplifier?

[Coytee]

In my own products we let the tube "itself" dominate the final signature, and so choosing tubes creates the final product. The original tubes we ship with Peach are the EI Elite gold pins. These tubes sound somewhat "in the middle" between the spectrum of available tubes. If one doesn't mind some tube rolling, it does allow a final bit of tailoring to suit taste. md

If these are "in the middle", then what tubes might be acquired if one wanted to explore each extreme?

Brand A: Might be thought to sound like?

Brand B: (the 'opposite' tube) might sound different from A how?

(I did use thought & might so no one needs to argue [6])

(and of course, what are those brands, or 'styles' if that's a better word??)

To a tube ignoramous (speaking of only myself), all this tube stuff is akin to perhaps sitting down with a 'witch doctor' and trying to figure out what the effect of digesting the newts of a bat might do as contrasted with some other boiling brew.....spooky.....veryyyyyyyyy spooky..... [li] [li] [ip] [um]

[Mike Lindsey]

Your posts never cease to amaze me, Mark.

I am so new to this and understand very little about electronics, and even moreso about tubes. But the way you write even allows guys like me to understand some of this stuff. What a tremendous asset you are on this Forum!

Mike