PrestonTom Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 i must say that i am little confused with some of the responses. that one graph contains quite a bit of information. for one, this should show on a blueberry to blueberry (i grow blueberries ) comparison the khorn to the jub in a corner and shooting into an anechoic chamber. this totally removes any room aberrations or nulls or whatever and tells you what the speaker can do. after all, we cannot guess what room the speaker will eventually be in and we cannot adjust the frequency response of a speaker for a room; we can just adjust and design around that which we can control. and if you think that you can't measure or feel 20 Hz in a room, that what is that that is rattling my gut in my son's truck (s10 reg cab); one clue; it's not the exhaust. in my opinion, and it's only my opinion, certain speaker parameters that are related to sound quality can only be measured independent of the room; back to my blueberries. roy I did not mean to imply that the response curves were not accurate. Also I was unaware how a "corner" was provided for the measure. Obviously it is an important measure. However, there is still a leap from looking at a curve and guessing how a cabinet will sound in one's own living room. The extra energy produced down at the low frequecies could be entirely obscurred when the cabinet is located (or poorly located) in the room. How it will actually mate to an individual room is difficult to estimate (in spite of the various approximations and simplifying calculations that other folks rely on). Additionally, anechoic chambers lose their free-field (anechoic) properties once the wavelengths exceed about 4 times the depth of the fiberglass wedges. IOW a 3 ft fiberglass wedge is good to down about 75-100Hz. A grain of salt needs to be taken for the lower end of the measured response. However, I am not sure of the specifics on what the test signal was, since you can sometimes get around this by careful windowing or using a Golay code or MLS sequence (if they can be used that low in frequency). -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 http://gallery.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=7080&f=new-2.jpg Dennis, the plot looks fairly close to me, especially when you consider smoothing. once again I have proven I cannot post pics to this stupid b-board!!!! <img src="http://gallery.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=7080&f=new-2.jpg" width=351 height=226> click the link for roy´s and PWKs prototype measurements Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 "Where did those graphs come from? Neither resemble the ones published in the JAES." No, they don't look the same. Even though there are some marked differences, they do look reasonably close I suppose. Two things are measured using the same method, then they are measured again later with some change in the method. The plots are certainly different, but it doesn't invalidate the things we see in each plot comparing the two cabinets. Regardless of the differences, we can see some of the same things from each (JAES and thread plot) -- smoother overall response, better bottom, and the significant increase in extension at the top end. I'm wondering if maybe the JAES plots were done outside. Wish I had the money to make the move, but I don't. So -- I guess I'll just stick with the lowly Klipschorn. Did you get my email Roy? Does the lack of response mean I've been relegated to Rasberry status? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 This new graph definitely has a wider frequency spacing (smoothing) versus the JAES paper... but unlike those we normally see released by other manufacturers, these haven't been massaged by a marketing dept. Like someone already mentioned... apart from the obvious gains in both the low end smoothing and the high-end extension... the Jub remains much closer to it ±db spec along it's whole frequency response versus the khorn's obvious bell shaped curve. This is what will principally contribute to the audible extended frequency response... while the bell shape will give the khorn more of a one-note-wonder sound. Definitely an improvement... ROb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 PWK's enthusiasm for rubber throats notwithstanding, I still think that constraining the first three folded sections to an exponential or tractrix contour will improve the response below 100 Hz. The increase in distortion should be negligible at the SPLs achieved in the home. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 I'm wondering if maybe the JAES plots were done outside. I believe that was the case. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Roy, May I ask about the testing conditons for the units reported in the AES paper? I'd like to test my constructions with some appreciation of what I'm trying to judge them against. When we met at PWK's house in '01 I was a bit sheepish in asking deep technical questions. Big brother (cousin) might have questioned motives for questions or answers. I assume that these were run at an outdoor, concrete corner at Hope. I recall the microphone was placed at 2 meters in your tests. The issue is whether the mike was at the ground, or above. I look at the graphs and there seems to be a comb filtering effect every 100 Hz. Yet the math in my head thinks the path delay (floor bounce) if the mike was at, say three or four feet above ground would not do this. My present thought is that in my apartment (site for testing with DOS LMS), the carpet over concrete is a good ground plane for deep bass and we have an image of the speaker mouth radiator. Yet at higher freq the ground plane is absorptive. Or maybe my implementation has problems. I can noodle with these issues. Naturally you can not comment on my testing conditions. My noodling, though, could be less prone to go off the deep end if you can let me know about the microphone height in the AES. Naturally I'll share data with everyone here. Best, Gil hi gil, long time no talk. if i remember correctly, and that could be a stretch, the graph in the aes article was a ground plane measurement, outside in our concrete corner. placing the mic off the ground would show some aberrations not the horns fault and is a very good way to measure the bass response of a system. the graph that i sent richard was in the corner of the door in the chamber and because of that, the mic can be centered on the axis of the lf cabinet to see what the top end response curves like. the comb filter effect is probably due to the fact that one woofer is closer to the mic than the other and is causing some sort of pathlength difference interference or it could be that the horn wants a little more mouth or it could be....... just a guess, though. don't ever hesistate to ask questions; deep or deeper. i can't promise i can answer them but i sure can dance thru them with the best of them. as far as your setup, you won't know till you try it. i look forward to your data. roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Besides the obvious extended frequency response from (500Hz to over 1KHz) there is I believe another very important difference between the Jubilee and the KHorn frequency response and that is the nearly +4db increase in response from (50Hz to100Hz range) and if you doubt the audibilty of this increase then try an experiment for yourself if you have an equalizer because a +4db increase in this range will be very noticeable. Also take note of the overall reduction in the 2nd and 3rd Harmonic Distortion reported in the article published in the (AES Vol. 48 No. 10 2000 October). So if we add all we know about the low frequency horn of the Jubilee versus the Khorn we get: (1) The Frequency Response of the Jubilee extends as low as the Khorn with an improvement in the 50Hz to 100Hz range as well as frequency extension to above 1KHz. Actually if you look at the graph and lets say used a +/-5db range the Jubilee reaches down to 45Hz where as the Khorn under the same conditions goes to 85hz before dropping out of this range. (2) The Jubilee has overall much less 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion versus the Khorn. My guess is also that the Jubilee will also have a better behaved overall phase response and maybe Roy can comment on this aspect of the Jubilee's performance when he has some time. Since the folds of the horn are simpler and closer to an ideal horn, frequency response is more extended/smoother and distortion is lower all this added together IMHO indicates a real improvement of the Khorns bass design. mike[] TN hey mike tn, excellent analysis. this is what i thought people would notice. by the way, i saw the trees that are going to be cut up to make your jubs. i told richard that i would curve a 69 with 402 and send it to him. i will send it to you too if you like. roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 "Where did those graphs come from? Neither resemble the ones published in the JAES." No, they don't look the same. Even though there are some marked differences, they do look reasonably close I suppose. Two things are measured using the same method, then they are measured again later with some change in the method. The plots are certainly different, but it doesn't invalidate the things we see in each plot comparing the two cabinets. Regardless of the differences, we can see some of the same things from each (JAES and thread plot) -- smoother overall response, better bottom, and the significant increase in extension at the top end. I'm wondering if maybe the JAES plots were done outside. Wish I had the money to make the move, but I don't. So -- I guess I'll just stick with the lowly Klipschorn. Did you get my email Roy? Does the lack of response mean I've been relegated to Rasberry status? rasberry?? that is just above a grape in the berry world. sorry deang, i didn't get your message. the lowly klipschorn kept paul's company going to this very day so don't worry about it. when paul thought about upgrading the khorn (as you know he did provide countless updates), he thought that this upgrade would be so different than the khorn that he insisted that it had to be a new speaker; thus the jub. roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Besides the obvious extended frequency response from (500Hz to over 1KHz) there is I believe another very important difference between the Jubilee and the KHorn frequency response and that is the nearly +4db increase in response from (50Hz to100Hz range) and if you doubt the audibilty of this increase then try an experiment for yourself if you have an equalizer because a +4db increase in this range will be very noticeable. Also take note of the overall reduction in the 2nd and 3rd Harmonic Distortion reported in the article published in the (AES Vol. 48 No. 10 2000 October). So if we add all we know about the low frequency horn of the Jubilee versus the Khorn we get: (1) The Frequency Response of the Jubilee extends as low as the Khorn with an improvement in the 50Hz to 100Hz range as well as frequency extension to above 1KHz. Actually if you look at the graph and lets say used a +/-5db range the Jubilee reaches down to 45Hz where as the Khorn under the same conditions goes to 85hz before dropping out of this range. (2) The Jubilee has overall much less 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion versus the Khorn. My guess is also that the Jubilee will also have a better behaved overall phase response and maybe Roy can comment on this aspect of the Jubilee's performance when he has some time. Since the folds of the horn are simpler and closer to an ideal horn, frequency response is more extended/smoother and distortion is lower all this added together IMHO indicates a real improvement of the Khorns bass design. mike[] TN hey mike tn, excellent analysis. this is what i thought people would notice. by the way, i saw the trees that are going to be cut up to make your jubs. ALRIGHT!!! If you have any idea of when these might be sent my way I would appreciate a Heads Up so I can schedule some Vacation Time.[] i told richard that i would curve a 69 with 402 and send it to him. i will send it to you too if you like. Roy are you kidding? Did you see my post on the various versions of the K-55 Drivers in the Technical Section awhile back using the ETF Program! I Love this stuff so give me all you got![:D] http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/2/733256/ShowThread.aspx#733256 roy mike tn[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted July 13, 2006 Author Share Posted July 13, 2006 I Love this stuff so give me all you got![:D] mike tn[] He's off his medications tonight...[6] [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 I too would be interested in the 402/69 combo measurement. Would it be possible to get some rough polar information too? Or if it's easier, of the entire system as a whole? I didn't get much of a chance to hear the off-axis frequency response and was wondering how small the sweet spot might be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 I too would be interested in the 402/69 combo measurement. Would it be possible to get some rough polar information too? Or if it's easier, of the entire system as a whole? I didn't get much of a chance to hear the off-axis frequency response and was wondering how small the sweet spot might be. i vote that we get the good doctor to come to hope and start gathering data. i bet he can get the jublf on its side on the polar turntable to do vertical polars....... roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 hey mike tn, excellent analysis. this is what i thought people would notice. by the way, i saw the trees that are going to be cut up to make your jubs. ALRIGHT!!! If you have any idea of when these might be sent my way I would appreciate a Heads Up so I can schedule some Vacation Time.[] i told richard that i would curve a 69 with 402 and send it to him. i will send it to you too if you like. Roy are you kidding? Did you see my post on the various versions of the K-55 Drivers in the Technical Section awhile back using the ETF Program! I Love this stuff so give me all you got![:D] http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/2/733256/ShowThread.aspx#733256 roy mike tn[] mike tn, looks like mid to late aug would be a good time for a vacation. roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 I too would be interested in the 402/69 combo measurement. Would it be possible to get some rough polar information too? Or if it's easier, of the entire system as a whole? I didn't get much of a chance to hear the off-axis frequency response and was wondering how small the sweet spot might be. i vote that we get the good doctor to come to hope and start gathering data. i bet he can get the jublf on its side on the polar turntable to do vertical polars....... roy So what limb or joint should I break just before making the trip down there? I did just sprain my ankle last sunday playing dodgeball at church... [:$][] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 didn't they make the movie about the competitive dodgeball already? doc leave them single digit chicks alone. by the way, breaking, losing or removing a few brain cell gets you qualified to work at the k ranch. roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Or a retirement spot at the funny farm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 So what limb or joint should I break just before making the trip down there? Mike you know engineering is more than just crunching numbers... I say hit the weight room and help Roy flip those puppies around.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Well if Roy is serious then I'm totally game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Trey Cannon Posted July 17, 2006 Klipsch Employees Share Posted July 17, 2006 Well remember Roy is a little short round guy now days...he will need the help.... we still love ya' Roy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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