NOSValves Posted December 4, 2006 Share Posted December 4, 2006 I have to say Mike I agree with all your saying about quick switching and testing. It is indeed a really poor way to evaluate anything audio. It takes time and evaluation with many different types of music and personal moods. Yes if two amps are hugely different then you will be able to say yup I hear a difference but to evaluate takes much more time and patience. That said the Denon versus the 2A3 comments are surprising to say the least. I would think the differences would be readily apparent. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lascaladan Posted December 6, 2006 Share Posted December 6, 2006 Mike, I am working on finding the time. If neither of us moves, it will happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Dope From Hope Vol. 13, No. 2, June 1973, Revised November 1973 SPEAKER DESTRUCTION As amplifier power increases, more loudspeakers fail in service. Also, people are rendering themselves partially deaf, and as hearing loss becomes more severe, the volume control is turned up increasing the cause of hearing loss, and increasing the rate of loudspeaker failure. I am not going to preach a sermon on damage to one's hearing. That is the listener's concern. I am going to point out that as amplifier power increases, the degree to which the speaker output reproduces the original sound, the sound quality, decreases. We can build sturdier speakers. Unfortunately, the accuracy of response will decrease. To explain: sturdier construction necessitates a stiffer and heavier diaphragm-voice coil assembly, and this necessitates a reduced output at the lower and upper range of each speaker component. Thus the range of the woofer is 35 to 400 Hz; the "rugged" version would have a range of 70 to 200. The midrange system range is from 400 to 6000; it would be confined to the 800-3000 Hz range. Crossover dips of 10dB or deeper would exist. Unfortunately (again) the "ruggedized" version would merely invite further power increase until a "satisfactory" level of distortion and ear-pain is achieved, at which level the driver units would continue to be destroyed. In a typical living room or small theater, our present all-horn systems offer concert-hall levels with a mere 10 watts peak input. We can offer a choice: the supreme quality of our present products, with the admonition to use less than 100 watts per channel, or a degraded response with (literally) ear-destructive power output. We can do it, either way, but not both. I leave it up to you, the customer, to make the choice. Paul W. Klipsch The Audio Iconoclast KLIPSCH AND ASSOCIATES, INC. Hope, Arkansas 71801 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Dope From Hope Vol. 14, No. 2, May 1974 . . . . . In a typical 4000 cubic foot listening room, this requires 40 peak amplifier watts to feed a group of high efficiency loudspeakers: assuming this to be a 2-channel stereo, 20 peak watts per channel or 10 watts average sine wave power rating per side is required. ****************** Parrot comments: Following this would rule out low-watt amplifiers, including all of the more popular SET examples. PWK's concern in the SPEAKER DESTRUCTION essay was just that: He was having to replace tweeters under warranty because some people were blowing them out with 100+ W amps. This led to a couple different attempts to protect the tweeters. Coda, try as hard as you might, you're never going to find PWK praising your choice of amp. I don't know why it bothers you so much. Why not just enjoy your amps without trying to twist PWK's statements around to support your decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Mark, that's what stood out to me. I decided to include the Dope From Hope text in full to put it in proper context. In contrast, the numbers used in Parrot's Dope From Hope example were cited to support a 115dB peak sound level pressure at the listener's ear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 You like text in full and proper context, do you? Then why didn't you mention that in the very next sentence, PWK explained that the 115dB peak would read 103dB on a sound level meter? Answer: Because a common misunderstanding promoted on this Forum is that you could easily attain that with a 1W amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Distortion always goes up with power, that's not exactly revelatory. Someone might want to dig up PK's comments on which kinds of amps power wise were the ones most likely to create the highest distortion levels and damage to the drivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 If PWK was such an expert on amps, why didn't he make his own? How about at least quoting someone with the right resume? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 The louder a speaker is played, the more distortion it makes. A true statement. Putting it another way, distortion trends (roughly) with diaphragm/ cone excursion. jw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 The louder a speaker is played, the more distortion it makes. A true statement. Putting it another way, distortion trends (roughly) with diaphragm/ cone excursion. jw I would venture to say that the difference in distortion produced with 1 watt into a klipsch horn and 10 watts is small and total not audible and most likely very hard to measure the difference. This is a splitting hairs arguement to say the least. In fact if we want to talk distortion most lower 1, 2 or 3 watt amps have on the magnitued of 5 times more distortion at full rated power then most 30 to 60 watts PP amplifiers in fact they almost always hove more distortion at any level and its easily measured to boot. This IMHO is a ridicules arguement. Why do you think that a good percentage of Klipsch users tend to like to pump up the volume some with Klipsch speakers........because the distortion is almost nothing!!!! While many other speakers sound like dung at these same levels. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Some speakers don't sound good at very low volume, while others do. Is it a constant that more volume always equals more distortion? Don't speakers, along with electronics, have a "sweet spot", or most linear range, where distortion is lowest? If it's at very low volume, don't psychoacoustic effects start to emerge (Fletcher-Munson, etc.) and possibly overshadow measured distortion numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Do low powered amps really have more distortion at milliwatt levels than more capable amps? I agree that the distortion of the speaker is a moot point - especially in light of the fact that the SPL the listener chooses to listen at is going to be the same, regardless of the amplifier (unless of course the amp can't handle louder). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 As NOSValves pointed out, many Klipsch owners listen at higher than typical volume levels. I don't know about anybody else, but I've found that I often have the volume higher than I did with my previous speakers because the La Scalas (with Paradigm sub) sound so darned good! They grab my attention more, and I want to listen "harder", or maybe "closer" is a better word. I'm still talking under 95dB, BTW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Some speakers don't sound good at very low volume, while others do. Is it a constant that more volume always equals more distortion? Don't speakers, along with electronics, have a "sweet spot", or most linear range, where distortion is lowest? If it's at very low volume, don't psychoacoustic effects start to emerge (Fletcher-Munson, etc.) and possibly overshadow measured distortion numbers? Depends if you consider frequency response a part of distortion. I've had the opportunity to attend a few very interesting lectures by guest speakers in the industry that talked about how drastically the frequency response changes with output level. I think the differences being heard there have more to do with the tonal balance than the actual distortion in the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 As NOSValves pointed out, many Klipsch owners listen at higher than typical volume levels. I don't know about anybody else, but I've found that I often have the volume higher than I did with my previous speakers because the La Scalas (with Paradigm sub) sound so darned good! They grab my attention more, and I want to listen "harder", or maybe "closer" is a better word. I'm still talking under 95dB, BTW. There is something to cranking it up, and it still sounds good and clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 30, 2006 Author Share Posted December 30, 2006 "Actually, the point of a driver's distortion increasing with applied power is independent of the amplifier, as long as the amplifier is not clipping. " Absolutely, 100% true - but this is an argument for discretion with the volume control - not choosing a low powered amp. In fact - mentioning the "not clipping" part at the end of the sentence rather puts the nail in their coffin, "But that isn't the point either. The point is that with any given driver the more power you put into it, the more distortion it makes. Of course this is not a "revelation" as you liked to put it. Or, it shouldn't be." Volume control again?? Might be interesting to see some measurements on distortion and reported detectability. Of course - it was seriously in Paul Klipsch's interest to promote the concept (without saying it directly here) that a higher sensitivity speaker, by its nature, is a lower distorting device than a lower sensitivity speaker (and the raison d'etre behind the horn loaded design). "It simply a reason why some people prefer to put fewer watts into their speakers - it reduces distortion. The louder a speaker is played, the more distortion it makes" My 500 wpc Yamaha will play at less than 50 dB - almost exactly the same level as any low power amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 My 500 wpc Yamaha will play at less than 50 dB - almost exactly the same level as any low power amp. Exactly right. A powerful amp can also play quietly but a flea-powered amp can play only within a limited range before it compresses the signal. It's clear that if you want a full-service amp, you need, oh, let's use PWK's figure of 20W. If you want an amp for special, restricted scenarios, say in a small room, or with someone with hearing damage who can't stand moderate dB levels, or someone who wants to only listen to Joan Baez or another "girl singer with guitar," then it's fine to go with flea-power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Vol. 16 No. 1 January 1977 Amplifiers with surprisingly low power ratings can be used in most situations particularly for the highly efficient all-horn system . . . When selecting a power amplifier, factors other than power should be considered. Because of the high efficiency of KLIPSCH systems, the low power (0.1 to 1 watt) distortion ratings of the amplifier become very important. Consideration should be given also to the TIM (transient inter-modulation) distortion of the amplifier . . . D. (Don) B. Keele, Jr. Chief Engineer Klipsch and Associates, Inc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Max, you messed me up! The Yamaha MX-D1 was my dream amp, but then I got the La Scalas and a mighty amp seemed to be no longer necessary. Now you mention that you're using one. Are you driving Heritage speakers with it? I'm sure it sounds better than my Yamaha receiver. You revived my dormant fantasy, and now I'll have to start saving up again. Grrr! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Vol. 16 No. 1 January 1977 Amplifiers with surprisingly low power ratings can be used in most situations particularly for the highly efficient all-horn system . . . When selecting a power amplifier, factors other than power should be considered. Because of the high efficiency of KLIPSCH systems, the low power (0.1 to 1 watt) distortion ratings of the amplifier become very important. Consideration should be given also to the TIM (transient inter-modulation) distortion of the amplifier . . . D. (Don) B. Keele, Jr. Chief Engineer Klipsch and Associates, Inc. Gosh, coda, as I asked you on the previous page, I thought you were advocating full quotes and context. You once again conveniently leave out any info that goes against your claim. From the very same Dope from Hope as you quote from above, Keele mentions that reproduction of original live rock music in a typical living room can be achieved "with a modest amplifier of about 50 watts per channel." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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