Klipschorns in a Commercial Environment (Bar)

[ManchesterKhorn]

Hi Guys,

Hope you all had a good Xmas & New Years, I've just won a great pair of 1990 Klipschorns from Ebay over here in the UK ! last time a pair were on Ebay over here was over 2 years ago, £1000 also !

Anyway, I'm opening a bar in Manchester, Uk this month ( see website for info: dulcimerltd.co.uk ) and am going to put my pair in the corners of the front of the second level of the bar (25 feet x 75 feet) to project out over the whole level & am going to configure the speakers with the top treble and Mid horn unit up to around 8/9 feet high (see recent picture of David Mancuso famous LOFT soundsystem set-up). I'm hoping this will benefit the bar and it's sound and the speakers won't be at direct ear level to people so they will be able to drink/talk etc without shouting at each other, also this stops people putting drinks on the speakers and spilling beer everywhere.

I wondered if any of you guys have seen or heard or has any advice on this set-up for a commercial environment, also thinking of powering the Khorns with Mark Levinson ML2 25w Class A Mono-blocks (any thoughts?)

Speak Soon

Lee

[JohnA]

It could be great! You know the bass horn needs 3 walls to reproduce the deep bass it is intended to reproduce?

I
wouldn't bother with the Mark Levinson amps, unless you already have
them. They are expensive and a bit underpowered for your
environment, plus no one will be able to hear the improvement in
quality in a noisey bar, anyway. I'd go with a lower high-end amp
of about 150 watts/channel from Rotel, Parasound, Adcom, Acurus,
B&K, Bryston, or the like. You'll have good headroom and
still have VERY high quality sound. It should have very good
speaker protection circuits.

[seti]

Congrats i love Manchester fun town and easier to fly into and get out of than London. Next time I am there I'll have to hunt it down.

[Arky]

Neat looking bar. Good luck in your new endeavor.

[LarryC]

I agree with the recommendation for higher power. I drove my K-horns with ML-2's and found them somewhat congested at high levels even in my small living room. The ML's were super-clean and clear-sounding at low levels, but my current (higher-power) OTL tube amps are cleaner, more alive at all levels anyway.

[DrWho]

How tall will the ceiling of this establishment be? You might consider flipping the khorns upside down and using the ceiling as the flare for the bassbin. If you're already planning on propping them up this high, I don't think it's going to be much of a change with how you design the "stand" holding them.

I also just wanted to echo the thoughts on providing more power to the khorns. You can always turn down the volume knob.

[JJkizak]

I don't know if Iknow how to listen to upside down sound. What a ponderment.

JJK

[Wrench722]

It could be great! You know the bass horn needs 3 walls to reproduce the deep bass it is intended to reproduce?

I wouldn't bother with the Mark Levinson amps, unless you already have them. They are expensive and a bit underpowered for your environment, plus no one will be able to hear the improvement in quality in a noisey bar, anyway. I'd go with a lower high-end amp of about 150 watts/channel from Rotel, Parasound, Adcom, Acurus, B&K, Bryston, or the like. You'll have good headroom and still have VERY high quality sound. It should have very good speaker protection circuits.

Hay John What did you mean by you need three walls?[*-)]

[DrWho]

The khorn needs a corner to finish the flare of the bassbin. This includes the two side walls AND the floor.

[ManchesterKhorn]

The ceiling is around 10 feet high, won't the speakers sound weird upside down ? and is 150w solid state to high for continuous use ?

Also thinking of covering the speaker fronts in clear perspex to stop any vandlisum.

[oldtimer]

Several years ago I used to go to Manchester several times a month! Not anymore though. Damn! I would have loved to frequent a place with Khorns.

[LoudnClear]

The ceiling is around 10 feet high, won't the speakers sound weird upside down ? and is 150w solid state to high for continuous use ?

Also thinking of covering the speaker fronts in clear perspex to stop any vandlisum.

Manchester: You sound like you are really concerned about the well being of the speakers. I would be too. If tavern patrons are anything like many I've had experience with, A) they won't respect your property and they won't appreciate the quality sound you're trying to show them. Getting the speakers out of reach of the patrons would be top on my list, meaning I'd put them in corners and construct a 1.5 meter tall gate or fence so no one could even touch them.

I fear for what you will end up doing when you find some peasant etching his initials into your Khorns some night. I think you can minimize your concerns though if you actually build a barrier between the speakers and the listeners.

Loud&Clear

[bodcaw boy]

The khorn needs a corner to finish the flare of the bassbin. This includes the two side walls AND the floor.

and the bottom of the hf......

you may want to do what indyklipschguy (roger) did and enclose the khorns.

roy delgado

[oldtimer]

The ceiling is around 10 feet high, won't the speakers sound weird upside down ? and is 150w solid state to high for continuous use ?

Also thinking of covering the speaker fronts in clear perspex to stop any vandlisum.

Manchester: You sound like you are really concerned about the well being of the speakers. I would be too. If tavern patrons are anything like many I've had experience with, A) they won't respect your property and they won't appreciate the quality sound you're trying to show them. Getting the speakers out of reach of the patrons would be top on my list, meaning I'd put them in corners and construct a 1.5 meter tall gate or fence so no one could even touch them.

I fear for what you will end up doing when you find some peasant etching his initials into your Khorns some night. I think you can minimize your concerns though if you actually build a barrier between the speakers and the listeners.

Loud&Clear

If you only knew what a Manchester crowd is capable of you would have posted in all caps.......

[DrWho]

The ceiling is around 10 feet high, won't the speakers sound weird upside down ? and is 150w solid state to high for continuous use ?

Also thinking of covering the speaker fronts in clear perspex to stop any vandlisum.

I can't imagine why it would sound wierd upside down. Installed PA systems fly the bass bins over the HF sections all the time. The khorn is about 4 feet tall? I guess this would put the tweeter about 6 feet from the ground - right around the height I prefer when setting up portable PA systems (maybe a bit higher depending on how far I want the sound to throw).

As far as the power output, it's general practice to have double the speaker's power handling available to prevent the amplifier from clipping. A clipping amp is more likely to damage the speakers than overpowering them. It's also easier to hear when a speaker is being overdriven and you usually have a plenty of time to turn it down. When an amp goes into clipping, damage usually occurs in a matter of seconds. For what it's worth, you might want to consider refreshing the crossovers to ensure proper mechanical protection of the squawker and tweeter. Not that you plan on blasting everyone's head off, but I'm sure you're going to want to bring it to a full volume every once in a while. The levels required for "background music" are going to be significantly louder in a noisy environment versus what would be chosen at home.

[colterphoto1]

LaScalas- built for bars- I used to fly them all the time...Just put a screen on so patrons can't set drinks in the bass bins.

[ManchesterKhorn]

So how about using Khorns for live acoustic band, as P.A speakers ?

[DrWho]

Khorn for PA would depend on the venue and style of music being played...I really don't think they go loud enough to be applicable to every situation. They really aren't going to be able to take much of a beating if you ever push them hard. You would also want to make sure steeper crossovers were being used.

Speaking of which, do the pro LSI's use the same K55 and K77 drivers?

[garyrc]

Of course, if you turn the Klipschorns upside down, the former bottom of the bass bin must be against a ceiling that is flat quite a ways out (>5 or 6 feet), or against another suitable surface substituting for the floor, making a good trihedral corner. The bass bin should be supported separately, not letting the mid/tweeter chamber support it (too weak, I think). On the off chance you get an American Style earthquake, the bass bin should be attached to the wall, if it is to be that high.

I'd be tempted to just cover the entire corner with grille cloth (removing the cloth on the Khorns) to keep drunks well away. Then you can let those of the Order of the Self-congratulatory Golden Ears guess what kind of speakers you have. Khorns often sound better to them when they don't know what they are listening to.

They won't sound weird upside-down. A friend once told me not to reverse the right and left channels, though, or the instruments in the center would be twisted -- First Violins tied in a knot -- it takes all kinds.

[Lascaladan]

I was wondering if you have Khorns at your home. If you do not, try to get them there and have them please you with the music coming out of them(if you have the proper corner set up). They do need corners upside down or not. Lascalas have worked better in my experience as well(as mentioned by Colter). As far as power, 25 watts should be enough for the "background" level you would be trying to achieve, but why use power hungry beasts like the Levinsons when you can use any other adequate amp(adcom 535 comes to mind). Unless you have a dance floor in there and will play disco, what does your "bar audience" want to do. Sound systems should be designed for the environment. Are they listening to music, intently, or is it background to them shooting the shit(pardon). I think they look awesome, based on the photo, but will your patrons be paying it much mind? Lots of luck with your new endeavor.