ClaudeJ1 Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 As for Roy's title for this thread, cut the guy some slack -- he just wants to have a thread that doesn't get butchered up. C'mon man, how many years have we waited to get him out here to talk about this speaker, and when he finally shows up some people don't have enough sense to treat him with the respect he deserves. This could be a really good thread if people let it. Roy, would you be so kind as to carry a Klipschorn into the chamber and model out a network for the K-69-A/K-510 for us? I got this idea in my head that the Klipschorn can hit 500Hz, I think that combo might sound pretty good in a Klipschorn. Agreed with all of your points. Since you were influential in my (gladly) catching the "upgrade fever" in a minor way, I'd like to hear your opinion on the very top end of the 402's. Since you didn't like stock K77's and preferred a JBL2404 or Beyma Tweeter on your Khorns (I can't remember which), how does "air" at the top sound, say, from 10-20K? Is it as good as a good Beyma or JBL Tweeter? Is the fact that it radiates from the same voice coil rather than 2 feet forward a big issue? Enquiring minds want to know. Claude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 Mike, understanding that the Jubilee bass bin appears to outperform the Klipschorn bass bin, especially in the 200-500hz region, Dean's question is very relevant to those of us who would not be in a position to pull the trigger on a pair of Jubs for a number of years yet, but we still will have our Klipschorns - and this new upper end driver/horn combo is very intriguing to us. As I've reviewed the various threads on the K69 mated with the two horns, I've had similar thoughts as the question Dean is asking. Plus, if...........the K510/69 combo could improve a Klipschorn top end - and still work at least decently with a Klipschorn bass bin for the time being, if one already has the upper end - then that would be less amount of $$$$$ needed to complete the full conversion (by adding the Jub bass bin) down the road. Of course, all of this assumes that I will like the Jub sound once I hear it........ Carl. Carl I fully understand where your coming from and I do wonder how would the K510 response at the low end be changed if mounted on a baffle that would fit the size of the Khorn's top section. In other words it might pickup some of the SPL roll off that is begining and ease the polar shifts that are starting to really vary but would that be enough to make it workable? mike tn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 Mike, "As far as transients Shawn I see it as basically the ability of a speaker to start and stop without ringing or compressing the signal when the Music( or impulse signal) is applied and that applies to all frequencies. " Something that starts and stops quickly is by definition a higher frequency. What starts and stops one cycle of a wave in less time... 20hz or 20,000hz? Totally agree about resonances (ringing) they screw up so many things, including transients as the speaker and/or room hold on to specific notes that end up playing when they shouldn't be. The messes up detail/clarity/coherence all over the spectrum even if the resonance is very narrow band. "Roy probably has stached somwhere(or at least in his mind) a horn that would stretch just a little bit lower that would worker better for the KHorn's bass horn." Pretty sure Roy said in one of these threads the K510 would work with a K'Horn. The K402 loads lower (around 350hz I believe) so it would, at least acoustically, match up. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 I used to think people wanted to know what I thought because I might provide good insight because of my experience, but later I figured out it was mostly because they enjoyed giving me grief -- so I actually quit saying much about anything I was hearing. It's really a damned if you do and damned if you don't proposition around here. The Klipschorn Jubilee is the best sounding speaker I've ever heard, and it's a good couple of notches above the Klipschorn in every area. If people who haven't heard them want to believe it's not a bonafide upgrade, then believe on. If people who have heard them have a different opinion then mine -- that's perfectly acceptable. I believe very strongly however that the latter will be in a very small minority. Back in 1974, I built my first commercial speakers (I was 19 then). They consisted of 15" Altec 421-8A Woofers, 808-8a Drivers in a 511B, T-35 Tweeters with a speakerlab 500/5000Hz crossover. I got Khorns in Oct. 1977 and one center channel LaScala about a month later (use the PWK resistor box to bridge the mono). This is the first opportunity I have had to upgrade the Khorns and they do sound better wiht the JBL 2404 and new caps. Some people need a place to whine about somehting or other. I am not one of those. I apreciate your quest for better sound. I'm sure that the Jubilee bottom represents a slow evolution of thought and experience on the part of PWK and Roy and we are lucky he left it to us before his passing. I trust that PWK's protege Roy's quasi-Tractrix horns are better performers than the legacy horns, otherwise we'd still be talking exponentials instead. If a 2-way active or passive with Roy's 402 on a Jub bin is the way to go, then perhaps I need to think about an upgrade (long term) also. If better transients, more definintion (from a 2" metal diaphragm) and a tighter horn design are the way to go, then from one semi-fanatic to another, I respect your judgement and the heck with those other guys. Claude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 Dean, "LaScala owners have it made, they can do it with no problem." Yup, works very well. Then they just need to add some serious subwoofer(s) to give the poor LaScala's some bass..... Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 Edwinr, I certainly don't know all the answers but if you have some Jube specific questions and want to throw them my way via pm/email please feel free to. My personal feeling is if you or anyone were to arbitrarily avoid the Jubilees because of comments here or because of some comments made by others not related to the true performance of the Jubilees... then my friend, you are only screwing yourself in the back. (IMHO). In my view, there are two seperate issues, one being some of the realities of Parrot (for better or worse) and facts about the Jubilee. It would be a mistake if one of those issues affected your thought process on the other. Sometimes, I wonder if I might be part of the fertilization of this Jube consternation.. Evidently I've used some descriptive words that some people have taken a step back about. I have never meant any disrespect to any others equipment (remember I still own a pair of LaScalas... actually, I own THREE of them) So, if any of my comments about my exuberence of the Jubes has caused anyone any angst, then I would like to apologize to that person (whomever it may be) as well as the forum in general. I will continue to offer anyone that cares to hear them in my humble living room, the opportunity to do so. Hi Richard, Thanks for your kind words. I really appreciate your post... In relation to Parrot. I'm not defending him (he can do that himself) but I feel everyone (not just Paul and I) should accept some blame for the way this thing blew out. For the rest of you guys... enjoy your jubilee thread. Edwin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 DWI - What is with all this rib talk here & there. If you have a killer recipe - please spill the beans. Dean - Will check PMs. Am I in trouble again? I asked at least 3 months ago if there was some way on this planet to fashion a semi-Jub out of a khorn bin...... Finally someone's thinking about it hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 In relation to Parrot. I'm not defending him (he can do that himself) but I feel everyone (not just Paul and I) should accept some blame for the way this thing blew out. For the rest of you guys... enjoy your jubilee thread. Edwin. Actually, he 'can't' defend himself. He can't post or respond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted April 5, 2007 Author Share Posted April 5, 2007 wow! i'm just proud that you are talking to me!! good question.....these are klipsch speakers.........this is a klipsch website........there are people that are interested in the jub experiment (and deano's comments).......all we need is those that just like to snipe to stay away........not those that actually have something to offer.....some insight.........i am not just looking for good comments....i am looking for constructive criticism.........when i first heard about the jub woes on the forum, i just wanted to let people know that jub system could be had that was better than the one we thought about bringing to market for alot less. yes i know that we offer the unpretty model, but gosh, i saw what people were putting in their homes and i thought that this just might fly. i appreciate your suggestion but no, the jub doesn't have to be put in the corner. i don't believe that pwk would have like that at all. and controversial.....you are the man!! have a blessed night (i mean it allan), roy delgado Roy, I am glad you posted on the issue of the corner. There was a thread recently, I think that Coytee posted about a brand new forum member who got Jub's, in Washington State I believe, that you helped get set up. Anyhoo, he mentioned that he pulled the speakers out from the corners abit and got some better sound. I asked for far he and Coytee had their speakers of the the corner and it was just a little bit, but they said the speaker was a corner speaker with a loss of bass response if they were forward facing. They suggested I contact you becasue you would know what the differense in response would be. So, since you mentioned that they do not need to be in a corner, and folks swear you have done testing on this, what, if any low end would I lose if had them forward facing? Travis EDIT: Roy, here way my question and the response I got from Coytee dwilawyer: How far are you running these speakers from the side wall and out from the back wall. I read with interest Bob's comments about losing the "one note" effect when he brought them out from the wall. Just wondering how much room these baby's need to breathe. Edit: I forgot these were corner loaded until I read through the rest of the threads and so the great photos. How much low end do you lose if they are on a wall but no corner? Coytee: My understanding from BerryBoy is they can be up to about 10" from each wall with zero negative effect. I have a thick plug (from my solid state amp) going into the wall socket and it just happens to FORCE me to scoot my right speaker from the wall. I simply moved the left one to approximate the right one so they'd look more balanced. As for how much you might lose, that might be a Roy question. They are made with a flat back so they CAN be pressed flat against a back wall. I think Bob was suffering from "one note" during his break in only. I think he's since made comment that his earlier comments (one note) were out of line once his woofers broke in. If you go back and read exactly what he said, you will see that he too is essentially saying that the Jubilees step all over the Khorns in all departments. hey travis, maybe a little miscommunication on the intent of the phrase, "put the jub in a corner". i was referring to sending a jub thread to the corner like a kid getting punished. but since you mention it, in the theater they are not corner loaded and get down to about 45. now in a theater they are in what i would call quasi quarter space as they are mounted in flat baffle and you do have the floor and ceiling. i will look to see if i ever took any curves of the jub lf in a ground plane configuration (1/2 space) have a blessed night, roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted April 5, 2007 Author Share Posted April 5, 2007 wow! i'm just proud that you are talking to me!! good question.....these are klipsch speakers.........this is a klipsch website........there are people that are interested in the jub experiment (and deano's comments).......all we need is those that just like to snipe to stay away........not those that actually have something to offer.....some insight.........i am not just looking for good comments....i am looking for constructive criticism.........when i first heard about the jub woes on the forum, i just wanted to let people know that jub system could be had that was better than the one we thought about bringing to market for alot less. yes i know that we offer the unpretty model, but gosh, i saw what people were putting in their homes and i thought that this just might fly. i appreciate your suggestion but no, the jub doesn't have to be put in the corner. i don't believe that pwk would have like that at all. and controversial.....you are the man!! have a blessed night (i mean it allan), roy delgado Roy, I know you followed my build and would like to know if you feel I got close enough to the real Jubilee to even be worthy of being able to call them a clone? Just wondering if the beautiful sound I am getting is close to the real Jubilee sound. rigma hey rigma, i would like your opinion on the sound as well. i think of all the plans i have seen, yours ranks way up there. i wish i could say more; i hope you understand. i would certainly call them a clone; a much more beautiful clone for sure. i am really impressed with your skills and patience....you ever thought about working for a speaker company? have a blessed night, roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 In relation to Parrot. I'm not defending him (he can do that himself) but I feel everyone (not just Paul and I) should accept some blame for the way this thing blew out. For the rest of you guys... enjoy your jubilee thread. Edwin. Actually, he 'can't' defend himself. He can't post or respond. Yeah, I realised what I wrote a few moments ago. He can't defend himself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted April 5, 2007 Author Share Posted April 5, 2007 okay deano, now maybe we can get some good, unbiased opinions on what you think about the jub without all the sniping to get in the way. have a blessed night roy delgado Okay. You had your win, Roy. How about easing off on the gas peddle... P.S. I agree with Allan Songer. You guys should create a dedicated Jubilee section. Maybe in this way you may avoid further angst and decrease the risk of upsetting current Klipschorn owners and potential buyers that frequent the 2 channel section. But it's your company. Do with it what you will... i am asking you very nicely....if you don't have anything constructive to say or have any direct questions about the jub....stay off.......please..... have a blessed day, roy ps. i tell you what, why don't go start a thread about how much of a jerk i am? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted April 5, 2007 Author Share Posted April 5, 2007 Roy. I truly, truly, truly think this is what needs to be done at Indy. I'm serious here. Have a pair of Jubilee bass bins with the 510 horn on top with your passive. This will eliminate a lot of "doubt" that the jubilee system isn't appropriate for the home. With the acceptance of this.....I believe more will jump on board. The 402 is great and we should hear it here too. I think that horn needs to be the "upgrade" option for the system for those who want the ultimate big horn experience. When I left Hope last year, I emailed you that following monday I returned to start lining up me to get the jubilee. My wife completely was against the 402 sitting on top. Then I was thinking of all these options of what I would do to the top end to make it more appealing to be in my house. Oh yea...lots of ideas crossed my mind on how to do this. But then all I could think of was how pissed you and others would be if I was one of the original Jubilee owners and have a vintage Altec horn or something else sitting on top. This had me worried I would be ousted on the forum. then you don't really understand what i am after. i would not have said anything if you got the jub lf and placed another horn on top of it. that is totally your choice and if i had the piece of gear that interested you like an altec horn, i would try to help you get the most out of it by curving it and help to give you some data. i have my own ideas of what i think just sounds great and may end the search for an awesome speaker; but that's just my own opinion. honestly, that would have been okay... Therefore I built my own jub clones. This gave me flexability. If I had heard the 510 at Hope Last year....and I'm sure they are good....the purchase probably would have happened. I know the passive for the setup isn't "commercially" available....but....it could be done 3rd party by your approval..... jc hi jc, i agree but it is harder to do in indy since i don't work out of the indy lab. we will see what trey has up his sleeve. by the way, have you gotten your 904-hf's yet? have a blessed night, roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted April 5, 2007 Moderators Share Posted April 5, 2007 Dean: I've yet to figure it out. Perhaps it is a compliment as you're a respected member of the forum or perhaps some simply want to bust your a$$. I am happy for you & glad you are enjoying your investment. I'm going to venture to Hope this summer & see if Roy will give me an audition. I'll be packing ribs. Arky, Let me know when your are going and I will bring an ice chest of sausage to throw in with your ribs (and anything else Roy likes to eat). (I'm serious) Travis Can I tag along? I'll take brisket; already smoked....by me....yum! I don't know what Arky's plans were, but as far as I am concerned, heck yeah, bring the beef. Then we can head over to Coytee's place to listen to his set up, but I think we can apease him with alcohol, which is a good thing because I think we will be totally out of food. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted April 5, 2007 Author Share Posted April 5, 2007 I normally do not post on threads that are subject lined attention of a particular person....but since others have already....and I have heard the jubilees in person as well as owning most of the Heritage line at one point or another.....my take is simple. They are too big. do you have khorns? The lower profile horn would probally be more appealing agreed but you would give up some performance....but I haven't had a chance to hear them. They are ugly. in your humble opinion. There's nothing about them that have a heritage character. who defines the heritage character; does pwk qualify? One of the major factors that results in ownership of a heritage product is the crasftsmanship and furniture appeal of the line. Price is fine. They sound great on the high end and the mid band...the low end leaves you wondering what happend. is the lf disconnected? I think these things can be made smaller and look nicer, perhaps thru the use of high excursion drivers. I'm not buying this buisness that the size is needed for the SPL since high excursion drivers in small boxes have been putting out high SLP for decades. and you also get.....all that distortion for free if you call within the next 5 minutes. My prediction is a lot of folks are going to find what they really like about the Jubilee is the top section and that awesome driver. Now, if you will excuse me....I need to get back to my shop to continue working on my Jubilee clones. whose plans are you using? have a blessed night, roy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted April 5, 2007 Moderators Share Posted April 5, 2007 DWI - What is with all this rib talk here & there. If you have a killer recipe - please spill the beans. Dean - Will check PMs. Am I in trouble again? I asked at least 3 months ago if there was some way on this planet to fashion a semi-Jub out of a khorn bin...... Finally someone's thinking about it hard. Actually, it was Arky who said he was going to head to Hope this summer with some ribs to try and bribe Roy into a listen of the Jubs. I suggested to Arky that he allow me to join him and that I would bring up a bunch of sausage in order to make it more worth while for Roy to "invite" us on up. So far Arky has not responded to my self invitation offer, possibly because he wants Roy, the Jubs, and the demo room all to himself. Meanwhile, Tubes-N-Horns is adding brisket to the mix to make Roy an offer he can't refuse. From there I would like to head over to Coytee's place to listen to his set up. So as far as rib recipies, you will have to ask Arky. However, I can put you on to some great tasting sausage. Dang, now I am dying for a Chicago style hot dog with radioactive green relish. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 No. I don't have them yet. Aren't the 904 stands built there in Hope? I am not in the huge rush to get them. So no need really to check on it. I knew it would take several weeks. I think if I had heard the 510's at Hope last year....would have been different. No biggie. I'll get the 510's in my house and get the experience first hand w/o ever have hearing them before. Shawn Fogg was a big help with that previous thread. Nobody really ever talked about them until then. I have a DBX Driverack PA processor here that has pretty much the function of the EV unit you recommend. I'm just going to use the shelving filter and Parametric EQ. My basement with Audio is decked out/finished and all the speaker wires are going through the wall. Can't bi-amp. So the LF section is a DIY bass bin and the top section will be the KPT-904. Custom passive XO at 600Hz. This is an upgrade/experiment process for me. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 edwinr, This is a Klipsch forum. The Jubilee is a Klipsch product. Roy is a confidant of PWK and a Klipsch employee. Parrot is a guy who never listened to a Jubilee, berated Roy endlessly while calling him a liar, by extension accused Klipsch of committing fraud, and has repeatedly made bogus claims and misrepresented them as PWK's thoughts and intents. Since your loyalty to Parrot overwhelms your sense of loyalty to Klipsch, please post a list of the Klipsch speakers you are ready to part with; I am sure others will be glad to relieve you of them. Roy & Jubilee or Parrot... not even worthy of discussion IMO. [bs] [bs] [bs] [bs] [bs] [bs] [bs] [bs] [bs] [bs] [bs] [bs] Agreed Companies have loyalty to customers no the corollary, we pay the bills ; get a life. I could care less about the Parrot deal. Roy is condescending and demeaning to those who ask questions he prefers not to deal with. A poor representative of the company; the worst of any Klipsch employee I have corresponded with written or verbal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodcaw boy Posted April 5, 2007 Author Share Posted April 5, 2007 Nobody answered any of my stupid questions. How much does the total speaker weigh? The Jub bass bin looks twice as complex as a K-horn and has thicker plywood. How much would it cost Klipsch to manufacture these speakers? My guess would be around $6,500 each or more. JJK not sure how much they weigh. they are on the website and they are listed as kpt-khj-lf and kpt-402-hf. have a blessed day, roy delgado Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted April 5, 2007 Share Posted April 5, 2007 Audio Flynn: I could care less about the Parrot deal. Roy is condescending and demeaning to those who ask questions he prefers not to deal with. A poor representative of the company; the worst of any Klipsch employee I have corresponded with written or verbal. Roy is like everyone else around here I'm sure. Show him respect and he will return it!!!!! I and many more here I believe would say you are totaly off the mark with your comments and especially if you have ever actually met him. mike tn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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