POLL: Fun with bias/voltage meters? What is your wall voltage?

[anarchist]

Ok. Just to get my post in and I will edit it provided this thread doesn't get locked. As Dr. Who mentioned, a 100 amp service is frequently (because it is 100 amps) going to have more amperage in breakers or fuses than the box provides. No big deal BUT 4X the amperage is a bit ridiculous. There is no way you should have 13 30 AMP fuses however. No way did someone install that much 10 gauge wire in your house.

Your lights are typically 15AMP fuses. Outlets are 20AMP fuses. They should be separate but in old house generally ran them together. In any case, the vast majority of your home should be no higher than 20AMP circuits. I would believe you are exceeding the capacity of the wire in your house unless those 30amp circuits have relatively light loads but this is definitely a no-no.

Lisa, calculate the load in those two rooms. You have 20AMP*120VOLTS = 2400 WATTS total to draw on that circuit and shouldn't exceed 80% so your devices in total shouldn't consume more than 1920 WATTS.

Check the wire that is on that circuit and it should be 12 gauge. Pull out an outlet and look (pull the fuse before doing so and make certain to verify the circuit is off by testing at the outlet PRIOR to sticking your hand in there). Check your outlets - two wires coming to them or three?

[Joe Auwen]

We are in a an area that is growing extremely fast, with lots of new housing and commercial buildings going up in a 20 mile radius. The power company has been trying to upgrade it's major (and only) substation for the past few months to keep up. My wall power will vary from approx. 119volts to 127volts within minutes and sometimes seconds. For piece of mind, I finally gave up and bought a PS Audio Power Plant Premier and set it for 117 volts. I run vintage McIntosh amps, that are set-up for 117 volts, into khorns.

[meagain]

Joe - Prior to buying the power plant, did you blow things in your macs? That Power Plant is nice.

Anarchist - If everything is on (including my pond which I believe is 430 but let's say 500), even in a temporary situation... I'm thinking 1,515. I have an HK AVR-435 that says it's at 59 on idle, and 940 running the full 7 channels. I run 5, so I just divided 940 by 7 X 5. IDK how else to do it. I have no clue what my amps are. The HK seems ridiculously high.

There are no wires to this fuse box. Just pipes going in. Oh - an outlet. Will check tomorrow.

[DrWho]

I think we designed for 4x in my power circuits class...granted, I've never been in the field, but I can't imagine they had us crunching completely irrelevant numbers...(though they do have us crunching meaningless numbers in acoustics so who knows....)

You might find this helpful meagain:

http://www.inspect-ny.com/electric/electric.htm

All the links on the right go to pages that talk about issues very similar to your case. You might find these two especially helpful:

http://www.inspect-ny.com/electric/ElecPanelInsp.htm

http://www.inspect-ny.com/electric/ElecAmps.htm

For what it's worth...fuses are only limiting devices. The fuses at the output only limit the amount of power that goes through those wires - and is dictated by the amount of heat that might get generated in the wire (to keep resistance down and to avoid fires). The fuses at the supply are also just limiters to make sure you don't melt the wire coming into your house. As long as fuses aren't blowing and wires melting, then you're not exceeding the capabilities of your system. It's not like fuses are some magical device that force the current to a certain amount.

[sfogg]

"it's at 59 on idle, and 940 running the full 7 channels. I run 5, so I
just divided 940 by 7 X 5. IDK how else to do it. I have no clue
what my amps are. The HK seems ridiculously high."

That is max at full power, the H/K will be much lower then that most of the time.

If you want to know exactly what something draws pick up one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/P3-International-Kill-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU

The pipe is called conduit. The wires are inside it.

Shawn

[Joe Auwen]

Joe - Prior to buying the power plant, did you blow things in your macs? That Power Plant is nice.

Wasn't blowing anything in the audio system, but could hear a change in the sound as the voltage went up and down. My UPS on my computer would also drop to battery power every few minutes until I set the sensitivety way down. From what I could measure, it was the spike at the top voltage that would trigger the UPS. The PS Audio output voltage is maintaining a near constant 117.3 volts (+/- .2 volts), so I am pretty happy with it. Even though the power issue didn't seem to have any short term effects, I feel a whole lot better about my amps long-term health with the cleaner and more stable power (of course the more consistent sound is nice too)... []

[NOSValves]

Just because she has 100 amp service doesn't mean the sum total of all the fuses should come to 100 amps! Wow, that would make life sucky for power engineers! The reason "more output is allowed" is because you never pull full current on every leg. In other words, it allows you to pull 15A on say 6 legs, leaving 10A to be distributed around the rest of the house (so like 1A each). Or you could have 10A on 8 legs and then 20A for everywhere else. If you limited the sum total to be that of the input, then you're forcing yourself to only deliver (100A / # legs) to each circuit. So if you had 20 legs, that's only 5A per leg!

Instead, you put fuses at the input of the circuit breaker to limit the total to 100A. When this blows, all the power in the house goes out. The only time you need to upgrade the power to your house is when the sum total exceeds the capabilities of the system (ie, you're blowing the main fuses).

I wouldn't be surprised if meagain had her power split up two ways, with two 50A fuses for the mains. Then you've got half of the house wired to each phase. Ideally, the power drawn on each leg will be about equal and the electrician will wire the house in anticipation of that. So if you're blowing only one of the main fuses due to overdraw, most electricians will come in and rearrange the legs to spread the power out. Spreading the power out also benefits the general public since the quality of the power delivered depends on maintaining a perfectly balanced system. Residential power needs are so small in comparison to industrial needs so this often gets swamped by the behavior of nearby industry. Nevertheless, you can often get power credits by implementing power in the house that maintains balance and has caps to improve power factor (for a home, the caps will need to be the size of 80 gallon drums so you don't see it too often).

Hey I'm not into house wiring I hired a pro to wire my home, shop but regardless what your saying makes sense. But no way in hell is 13- 30 amps fuses advisable or the 400 amp total. Especially on a house with wiring and a fuse box from the 50's. No way no how. Stuff like this is exactly why they outlawed replacable fuses and went to breaker boxes. Yes the breakers can be replaced but most folk are too scared to mess with them. But a simple fuse....if it keeps blowing just put a larger one in. I bet some where along the line that is exactly how these 30 amp fuses were installed in this case. Hell I pull 10 amp fuses where 2 amps is proper all the time in audio gear. Then people wonder why they have fried transformers.

Craig

[meagain]

I have no idea if the fuse sizes were changed. I know we would never do such a thing. There is no indication what size fuses they should be. Husband reminded me what the electrician did about 3 years ago. Did something to the box having to do with a/c. I remember him running or switching some wires to the box to clean something up. One of the ports was iffy or he added a port? IDK - would have to talk to my husband more to pick his memory on it. He never told us what the fuses should be and I didn't ask. But he didn't say anything was goofy because I surely would have had it fixed especially given my fear of electric. All I know is we experience no electrical problems.

IDK how old the fuse box is. For all I know they upgraded it years after the house was built. IDK. But let's assume 1958 (but we don't know!). This section of the house is an add on that happened in 1965.

So, then if the 20 amp fuse should really be a 15, what does this mean? Even at 15, I don't think I'm overloaded when counting my watts? What is the power consumption of the amps anyway? I can't find that.

[Marvel]

Breakers can be more dangerous than fuses. What they are is convenient, being a resettable fuse. They cost more on the front end, but in effect get used more than once. A breaker than has tripped more than once isn't as reliable or as safe as a comparable circuit that is fused and has new fuses put in. But as Craig points out, they sometimes get replaced with a larger fuse instead of fixing the problem.

Bruce

[Marvel]

Lisa,

In many places, an electrician who finds wiring that is incorrect, must disconnect the service until it is corrected. It isn't just job protection, but a safety issue. If the electrician was doing his job, and the box was wrong, he may have a liability to point out the errors, or even shut everything down.

Wiring is rating for a certain amperage, determined by the gauge of the wire. You pay for electricity in watts, or kilowatt hours, which is a unit of power. It is a simple function of the voltage x current, or P=IE. P is watts, I is current and E is voltage. If you turn on a loght bulb and measure the current through it, you can determine the actual wattage (not light output, that is in lumens). Say the bulb has a current usage of 2 amps (I knew at one time what they used, so I am making this up). If the voltage supplied is 120 volts, using the formula previously stated, there is a power usage of 240 watts. You could then figure out how much that costs to run per hour, if you know your electric rate, like $.18 a kwh. It all adds up in the house.

A clip on amp meter can measure the current usage on power lines. The meter measure the current flow through only one of the conductors. You can use a regular DMM, but the meter has to go IN the circuit and it becomes more problematic to unhook one leg of the circuit to place the meter into it.

Probably muddied the water and forgot something important, but figured I'd give a shot at explaining. Been a while since I went over this stuff. Dr. Who has had classes more recently.

Bruce

[dtel]

13 fuses at 30 amps, even on a 200 amp box in not normal , somebody put bigger fuses. The largest average wire for outlets an lights is #12 on any house I have ever worked on, I did that in a past life. Anything larger than 20 amp for lights or outlets in NOT normal.

I wired our house with all #12 and 20 amp breakers even lights,. with very few outlets on each circuit and dedicated runs for anything above a general outlets, like TV stereo, refrigerator, microwave, and of course everything larger.

This guide may help, with how many amps per AWG.

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

[dtel]

Lisa,

In many places, an electrician who finds wiring that is incorrect, must disconnect the service until it is corrected. It isn't just job protection, but a safety issue. If the electrician was doing his job, and the box was wrong, he may have a liability to point out the errors, or even shut everything down.

Wiring is rating for a certain amperage, determined by the gauge of the wire. You pay for electricity in watts, or kilowatt hours, which is a unit of power. It is a simple function of the voltage x current, or P=IE. P is watts, I is current and E is voltage. If you turn on a loght bulb and measure the current through it, you can determine the actual wattage (not light output, that is in lumens). Say the bulb has a current usage of 2 amps (I knew at one time what they used, so I am making this up). If the voltage supplied is 120 volts, using the formula previously stated, there is a power usage of 240 watts. You could then figure out how much that costs to run per hour, if you know your electric rate, like $.18 a kwh. It all adds up in the house.

A clip on amp meter can measure the current usage on power lines. The meter measure the current flow through only one of the conductors. You can use a regular DMM, but the meter has to go IN the circuit and it becomes more problematic to unhook one leg of the circuit to place the meter into it.

Probably muddied the water and forgot something important, but figured I'd give a shot at explaining. Been a while since I went over this stuff. Dr. Who has had classes more recently.

Bruce

Bruce you are correct, when he seen that many 30 amp fuses, he should at least said something, there is no way that house is wired with #10 or larger ! No way, if the house is over 15 or 20 years old they would be very lucky to have #12.

[fini]

Breakers can be more dangerous than fuses.

ESPECIALLY if they're Zinsco brand breakers!

http://www.inspect-ny.com/electric/Zinsco.htm

[maxg]

Wow, yet another thread on another problem Lisa has. If it isn't amps, tweeters, woofers, out of phase speakers, ugly looking speakers, color, end bell caps, crossovers, tubes, fuses, decisions, graphic equalizers, or microphones, walls, room dimensions, and ambient noise floors, then it must be bills, Tuesday, and electrical problems. And people rush in to help.

Is there a pattern?

Yes, it is codependancy.

Too funny!!!

Nice one Dave - I think it is the damsel in distress thing. Never seen anyone with this number of intractable problems it must be said....

[meagain]

I'll buy 15 amp fuses today and put one in for my listening room to change from 20 to 15a. I'm sure it will work just fine. The rest of the house can burn down for all I care, (though it's been good for 9 years). The listening room is all I care about.

Max - I'm told my electricity could be causing my amps to blow fuses/tubes on startup so I'm trying to sort out what might be wrong with it and either figure out if/why.

[sheltie dave]

Lisa, as part of Craig's investigation into your situation with the VRDs, he has talked to me(after all Gary and I have the protoype and first VRD children of his.) I have replaced a grand total of one(1) rectifier tube, and that was due to Liam clicking the amp on and off over fifty times in the course of five minutes. I have biased the amps three times since new.

When we bought our 1957 house five years ago, we immediately had the 115 amp fused service box replaced with a 200 amp service box, installed two isolation transformers and controllers, and bought a Furman. I don't need to measure what my wall voltage is - I have an installed calibrated detector readout available anytime, and it is rock solid at whatever voltage I choose.

I also heed Craig's (and Mark's) advice on how to operate their tube equipment - they designed, built, beta tested, and warranty it, so it stands to reason they will be very paticular on the do's and don'ts. If you operate your amps in a fashion that strips all the getter flashing, puts cracks in the base union, discolors the envelope, etc, then you should expect blown fuses from current overdraw and arcing. If you don't follow their advice, it is a good thing not to castigate them in public fashion.

I poke fun at you because you demand attention at such a high level, but you rarely embark on a coherent plan to remedy the malady/complaint/problem. When you do act, the problem suddenly mutates, and ends up being a totally different set of circumstances with multiple transient permutations also factored. Even if you do in fact have both your submersible centrifugal pond pumps on the same circuit as your stereo, causing ALL your problems, the long and short is you have spent over $5K on a great stereo setup, and invested nothing in logical preplanning to maximize benefits and minimize troubles.

95% of getting somewhere is learning how to ask the right question at the right time - the other 5% is listening and applying the answer.

[maxg]

I'll buy 15 amp fuses today and put one in for my listening room to change from 20 to 15a. I'm sure it will work just fine. The rest of the house can burn down for all I care, (though it's been good for 9 years). The listening room is all I care about.

Max - I'm told my electricity could be causing my amps to blow fuses/tubes on startup so I'm trying to sort out what might be wrong with it and either figure out if/why.

If t'were me I think I might call in a qualified electrician rather than the forum members. Get one with some monitoring equipment and he can probably tell you exactly what is going on with your power and whether or not this is the cause of you endless problems.

For all we know you have the amps sitting on a nylon carpet and every time you switch it on or off you are zapping it.....or any one of a hundred other possibilities - my wife once knocked out an amp with a mohair sweater - but thankfully those are no longer in fashion....

[Audio Flynn]

Lisa, as part of Craig's investigation into your situation with the VRDs, he has talked to me(after all Gary and I have the protoype and first VRD children of his.) I have replaced a grand total of one(1) rectifier tube, and that was due to Liam clicking the amp on and off over fifty times in the course of five minutes. I have biased the amps three times since new.

When we bought our 1957 house five years ago, we immediately had the 115 amp fused service box replaced with a 200 amp service box, installed two isolation transformers and controllers, and bought a Furman. I don't need to measure what my wall voltage is - I have an installed calibrated detector readout available anytime, and it is rock solid at whatever voltage I choose.

I also heed Craig's (and Mark's) advice on how to operate their tube equipment - they designed, built, beta tested, and warranty it, so it stands to reason they will be very paticular on the do's and don'ts. If you operate your amps in a fashion that strips all the getter flashing, puts cracks in the base union, discolors the envelope, etc, then you should expect blown fuses from current overdraw and arcing. If you don't follow their advice, it is a good thing not to castigate them in public fashion.

I poke fun at you because you demand attention at such a high level, but you rarely embark on a coherent plan to remedy the malady/complaint/problem. When you do act, the problem suddenly mutates, and ends up being a totally different set of circumstances with multiple transient permutations also factored. Even if you do in fact have both your submersible centrifugal pond pumps on the same circuit as your stereo, causing ALL your problems, the long and short is you have spent over $5K on a great stereo setup, and invested nothing in logical preplanning to maximize benefits and minimize troubles.

95% of getting somewhere is learning how to ask the right question at the right time - the other 5% is listening and applying the answer.

I agree with Max and Dave.

Do not sort this out on a forum get an electician with at least 3 references if you cannot find a freind of a friend who is LICENSED. It will cost serious money, your safety is more important than the money. To do the job right will most likely require taking out portions of walls and ceilings. A budget of 3000-4000 usd for electician and 1000-2000 usd to fix walls would be a place to start the discussion. You do not have to have the work completed all at once.

I am in the last year of a 3 year plan to rewire my house and I never had audio problems; objective was safety and home resale value.

Another observation, The electricains I know rarely pull 12 gauge wire in the house, too much hassle. They do it for high amp draw circuits but not for lighting, they use 14 gauge. I have not seen 10 gauge in a home application.

[meagain]

Sheltie Dave - I'm sure you have talked to Craig, in fact I'm sure there's alot of phone hours going into this one. Please PM me your phone number or I'll shoot mine to you. Let's talk!

The pumps are external. I've had an electrician here 3 years ago to look at work on the fuse box. I'm told spending $450 is going to solve my amp problems. Sorry, but I'm not going to blindly do that without research minimally into the various accoutrements added with these regulators especially without yet seeing evidence that there is one. There has been no electrical problem identified here as of yet. It's just speculation. I plan to call an electrician today to veriffy. And don't even go there about my care of the amps. Really - please give me a call.

Yes I've had problems. Problems with the sound quality out of my khorns. Know how I fixed it? Bought new ones. They sound utterly fantastic!

I merely want to know how freekish my current 124-125 wall voltage is from the average. I shall verify my electrical with an electrician. I shall put a 15amp fuse on this circuit.

[Allan Songer]

Another observation, The electricains I know rarely pull 12 gauge wire in the house, too much hassle. They do it for high amp draw circuits but not for lighting, they use 14 gauge. I have not seen 10 gauge in a home application.

Well, I have. I bought a house in 1982 that was built in 1907. The ENTIRE house was wired in 10-guage some time in the 60's or 70's by the previous owner. I have to tell you it was a PAIN IN THE BUTT to change out ANYTHING in that house. The guy who rewired the house also ran ALL of the wire in conduit! He stripped the house down to the studs on the interior, ran 10 guage in conduit and then replastered the walls using metal lath!!! I had to remove the siding from the outside of the house in order to remove a dishwasher because he had HARD-WIRED the damn thing in place and then built the cabinets around it.