Khorn v Jubilee

[Deang]

Chris and Mike -- good posts!

"Some like to claim that measurements don't correlate to what one actually hears..."

I'm not sure any of 'us' have ever said that -- what I would say is that the most common measurements don't seem to account for everything the ear/brain picks up -- and sometimes something that doesn't measure as good sounds "better". Case in point -- Rigma's passives vs. the near ruler flat response of the active setups. I realize the latter is subject to opinion and preference -- but there it is.

[gaspr]

If you can find the article, read the
JAES publication about the Jubilee - it's been posted a few times, but
I can't seem to find it...

Here is the JAES article

AES-Jubilee2.pdf

[Marvel]

When did PWK first come up with adding Jubilee onto the Klipschorn? Does anyone know?

Bruce

[greg928gts]

Quoted from DrWho: "The biggest thing I wish the Jubilee was better at is more low frequency extension. It effectively digs as low as the Khorn, but I don't feel either dig low enough for the type of music I listen to. I think some guys feel the same way, which is why they have gone with an MWM instead of the Jub LF. However, I wouldn't be willing to trade the mid bass performance of the Jub LF for more boom in the low end...I think it makes more sense to go 3-way with a dedicated pair of stereo subwoofage to take over where the Jub rolls off (~40Hz)."

My experience with the MWM's is that they don't go below 40Hz either. In fact, in my room (24 x 32), they have a hard time below 50Hz without major EQ work. They are in corners. I love my MCM system - I listen to it more than any of my other systems. There's just something about BIG speakers.

Greg

[Coytee]

When did PWK first come up with adding Jubilee onto the Klipschorn? Does anyone know?

I think Roy is best suited to answer that. I DID ask him something similar to that and as I understand it... (paraphrasing) The Jubilee was originally intended to replace the Khorn. Once it was done they realized it wasn't a minor improvement on the Khorn but it was actually such a distinct improvement on the Khorn that it deserved its own designation (apologies to all the heard-nots who don't really want to believe that could be true)

I later asked how did the name "Jubilee" come about... committee? Pacing back & forth debating a name? Drawing out of a hat? Roy said "easy... PWK said the jewish 50th anniversary (or holiday?) was the Jubilee" (I think that infers the Jubilee COULD have been finished in time to actually be the 50th anniversary Khorn but I have nothing to base that on other than the above comment about the holiday)

Don't know if that answers your question but that's my understanding.

[Marvel]

When did PWK first come up with adding Jubilee onto the Klipschorn? Does anyone know?

I later asked how did the name "Jubilee" come about... committee? Pacing back & forth debating a name? Drawing out of a hat? Roy said "easy... PWK said the jewish 50th anniversary (or holiday?) was the Jubilee" (I think that infers the Jubilee COULD have been finished in time to actually be the 50th anniversary Khorn but I have nothing to base that on other than the above comment about the holiday)

Don't know if that answers your question but that's my understanding.

Richard - this was exactly where I was heading, given the 50 year mark to be a year of "Jubilee". It would certainly make a lot of sense, coming from Paul and Roy.

[Audio Flynn]

I've bought plenty of speakers under $1000, without listening to them, also. I'm not talking about relatively inexpensive purchases.I just bought a pair of Tekton design in the last 6 months which cost $500, I and never heard them. But, then I didn't agonize over them with requests of how they compared with other speakers to Tekton owners either. But when it comes to dropping 5 grand or 10 grand on speakers, (especially Big and Heavy speakers) I would get a plane ticket for an audition before I bought them. I wouldn't spend $50K on a car without a test drive either.

So my rules are for purchases for speakers that 'cost a lot' for your budget. - You decide - If Jubliees were $2000, I'd order a pair today, if they're $10,000 - I'm gonna hear them first!

So, let's not split too many hairs here! And you guys wonder why things never get through in Congress!

You do the people asking questions a great disservice when your responses are incomplete and unclear.

[Audio Flynn]

Quoted from DrWho: "The biggest thing I wish the Jubilee was better at is more low frequency extension. It effectively digs as low as the Khorn, but I don't feel either dig low enough for the type of music I listen to. I think some guys feel the same way, which is why they have gone with an MWM instead of the Jub LF. However, I wouldn't be willing to trade the mid bass performance of the Jub LF for more boom in the low end...I think it makes more sense to go 3-way with a dedicated pair of stereo subwoofage to take over where the Jub rolls off (~40Hz)."

My experience with the MWM's is that they don't go below 40Hz either. In fact, in my room (24 x 32), they have a hard time below 50Hz without major EQ work. They are in corners. I love my MCM system - I listen to it more than any of my other systems. There's just something about BIG speakers.

Greg

Some time ago Dr Who was touting all the lost muscial information under 20 hz. Where microphones and pro tape recorders dare not claim to perfrom flat...

Now upgraded to 40 hz.

If you are a critial listener of audiphile grade pipe organ or direct to digital low frequency synthesizer you certainly need realism with no roll off under 40 hz.

For nearly all other music 40-20,000 hz should satisfy. For me I only get a little over 16,000 hz on the top end.

Bibliographic Entry	Result (w/surrounding text)	Standardized Result
Cutnell, John D. and Kenneth W. Johnson. Physics. 4th ed. New York: Wiley, 1998: 466.	"Experiments have shown that a healthy young person hears all sound frequencies from approximately 20 to 20,000 hertz."	20-20,000 Hz
"Ear". Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia. CD-ROM. 2000.	"The maximum range of human hearing includes sound frequencies from about 15 to about 18,000 waves, or cycles, per second."	15-18,000 Hz
Acoustics. National Physical Laboratory (NPL), 2003.	"The general range of hearing for young people is 20 Hz to 20 kHz."	20-20,000 Hz
"Body, Human." The New Book of Knowledge. New York: Grolier, 1967: 285.	"The human ear can hear vibrations ranging from 15 or 16 a second to 20,000 a second."	15 or 16-20,000 Hz
Caldarelli, David D. and Ruth S. Campanella. Ear. World Book Online Americas Edition. 26 May 2003.	"The full range of human hearing extends from 20 to 20,000 hertz."	20-20,000 Hz

[Cut-Throat]

You do the people asking questions a great disservice when your responses are incomplete and unclear.

Well, as Steve Martin would say 'Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuusssssss.................me'

[DrWho]

Now upgraded to 40 hz.

What is that supposed to mean?

If you are a critial listener of audiphile
grade pipe organ or direct to digital low frequency synthesizer you
certainly need realism with no roll off under 40 hz.

Or grand piano, bass guitar, lots of percussion, or a bunch of wood instruments, etc...
http://www.contrabass.com/pages/frequency.html

Also, there's a lot of group delay / phase shift happening right before and during the rolloff of any speaker. So if you're rolling off at 40Hz, then you've only got 'clean' sound down to like 50Hz, or thereabouts. It's especially apparent when an instrument hits on the steeper part of the roll-off...probably because musical notes wobble a bit in frequency, which is gonna have a huge amplitude shift during it.

It is really quite trivial to view the frequency content of any music to determine the bandwidth requirements for the playback system.

My
experience with the MWM's is that they don't go below 40Hz either. In
fact, in my room (24 x 32), they have a hard time below 50Hz without
major EQ work.

That sounds like a standing wave issue - especially considering the room dimensions.You probably have a big null just below 50Hz. What's the performance like in the corners opposite the speakers?

[Islander]

That subcontrabass clarinet must be quite an instrument. I wonder if he ever tried to play the "brown note" on it?

[ClaudeJ1]

Quoted from DrWho: "The biggest thing I wish the Jubilee was better at is more low frequency extension. It effectively digs as low as the Khorn, but I don't feel either dig low enough for the type of music I listen to. I think some guys feel the same way, which is why they have gone with an MWM instead of the Jub LF. However, I wouldn't be willing to trade the mid bass performance of the Jub LF for more boom in the low end...I think it makes more sense to go 3-way with a dedicated pair of stereo subwoofage to take over where the Jub rolls off (~40Hz)."

My experience with the MWM's is that they don't go below 40Hz either. In fact, in my room (24 x 32), they have a hard time below 50Hz without major EQ work. They are in corners. I love my MCM system - I listen to it more than any of my other systems. There's just something about BIG speakers.

Greg

Which is why Dr. Who designed a tapped bass horn that gets to 23 hz. The thing about the MWM woofer bins is that they have a rising bass response right below cutoff, which gives them that "fat bass" characteristic. The Khorn and Jubilee have a similar cutoff frequency when placed in corners, but the Jubilee has much greater and flatter bass output higher up. The Khorn and Jubilee go lower than the MWM, but they roll off at a higher frequency, with a gentler slope. There is not as much room gain with the MWM's as there is with the Khorn and Jubilee as far as low frequency extension. Without the corners, a Jubilee curve looks more like a LaScala's. You can think of the MWM's as being so big, that they carry their own corner. LOL.

[Chris A]

The biggest thing I wish the Jubilee was better at is more low frequency extension.

Just a note in passing: IMHO, the solution to this continuing question is now a Danley DTS-10 kit (if it's still available), or a couple of TH-SPUDs. I'm sure that there are others with differing opinions...

Chris

[ClaudeJ1]

The biggest thing I wish the Jubilee was better at is more low frequency extension.

Just a note in passing: IMHO, the solution to this continuing question is now a Danley DTS-10 kit (if it's still available), or a couple of TH-SPUDs. I'm sure that there are others with differing opinions...

Chris

Yes, why dink around with horns that are designe to go up to 400-1,000 Hz. and try to get them to 12 Hz? Get the Danley tapped horn stuff and cross them Below 40-50 Hz. on whatever Klipsch corner horn you have (70-100 Hz. on a LaScala) and be done with it.