what do I miss

[phutho]

Hi,

I have Citation 7.1 amp and Mcintosh c32 pre. to drive klipsch forte (later will be klipschorn and cornwall). For me the sound is very good. I do not have a tube amp to compare to the SS set that I have now. Please tell me what do I miss? (how much better a tube amp sound?). What tube amp do you recommend for a new bee like me?

Why Bob Crites prefer SS over tube? This is what he would ask PWK: "Why do so many of the Klipsch speaker owners insist that your products are meant to be used with tubes when you went to solid state in around 1971?"

Thanks so much.

[Mallette]

Welcome to the madness!

>Why Bob Crites prefer SS over tube? This is what he would ask PWK: "Why do so many of the Klipsch speaker owners insist that your products are meant to be used with tubes when you went to solid state in around 1971?"

I do not think this was the case. I was in PWK's listening room in 1973 and he was running Marantz tube amps/preamps. There is no "wrong" or "right" amp, only taste. I characterize tubes as "warmly accurate," SS as "sterilly accurate," and digital amps as "in between."

Just try tubes and/or a good digital amp (I have a Panasonic digital amp I paid 125.00 for and I love it) and see what you think. Listen to several if you have the chance.

That's what makes all this fun! So many combinations to experience the mind BOGGLES!

Have fun, and share your experiences with us here.

Dave

PS - Neglected to mention that I have a tube preamp and amp that I can switch to on demand. I use it when the spirit moves, and the digital as a "workhorse" for other times that saves my tubes.

[Don Richard]

Tube amps react differently to a loudspeaker load than SS equipment. Tube amps use output transformers to match the high impedance (2500 ohms, eg.) of the tubes to the low impedance (8 ohms nominal) of a loudspeaker. This higher (than Solid State) output impedance causes the frequency response of the tube amp to track the impedance of the loudspeaker. This may actually be of benefit in some cases.

The triode input tubes overload differently than transistors. Harmonic distortion is mostly 2nd and 3rd harmonics with triodes, while transistors output higher order harmonics. Triodes clip assymmetrically, providing a sort of limiting that some find musically pleasing, in contrast to the symmetrical clipping of a transistor which produces odd order harmonics that don't sound musical.

Solid state amps usually have higher power output than tubes, and generally distort less than tubes. They run cooler and require no maintenance. Bass reproduction is generally tighter and better defined with SS amps. Besides being cheaper to own, watt for watt, SS amps can be generally be purchased for less than a tube unit.

The equipment that you now own is good. Only you can say if another amp, SS or tube, sounds better to you than what you already have. Try to borrow equipment to audition in your home before you buy.

[oldbuckster]

When in doubt ..................... Own both of them !!! Try an intergrated tube amp ... Scott, Dynaco, Fisher, Eico, if you like those, you can always move up the ladder ....................

[Deang]

With a moderate amount of global feedback, tube amps don't track impedance, and besides -- the room will cause much greater variations in frequency response than any tube amp.

A person naturally wants to know what the difference in sound is, but this is problematic because there is no general "tube sound". We can describe "the tube sound", and then have not much trouble at all finding a tube amp that doesn't sound that way. We might compare a modern tube integrated with solid state rectification and no real preamp section to a vintage Scott or Eico and not find much of anything in one that reminds us of the other. I'm currently using a modified solid state Crown D45 modified by Mark Deneen of Juicy Music Audio, and it in fact sounds more "tubey" than several tube amps I've owned in the past (the AES AE-25, VAC 30/30 and Bruce Moore Dual Mono 70 come immediately to mind). I can only say that horn speakers are forward and very revealing, and Heritage especially can be somewhat brash -- and because of this tend to sound subjectively more pleasing with lower power offerings from either camp. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

I'm with Dean on this. I have had SS equipment sound much more like you expect tubes to sound than tube equipment.

[Daddy Dee]

phutho,

It's sort of a subjective and synergistic thing. Mr Paul changed to SS on his home system in later years.

Hope you have a chance to hear tubes.

[Audio Flynn]

With a moderate amount of global feedback, tube amps don't track impedance, and besides -- the room will cause much greater variations in frequency response than any tube amp.

A person naturally wants to know what the difference in sound is, but this is problematic because there is no general "tube sound". We can describe "the tube sound", and then have not much trouble at all finding a tube amp that doesn't sound that way. We might compare a modern tube integrated with solid state rectification and no real preamp section to a vintage Scott or Eico and not find much of anything in one that reminds us of the other. I'm currently using a modified solid state Crown D45 modified by Mark Deneen of Juicy Music Audio, and it in fact sounds more "tubey" than several tube amps I've owned in the past (the AES AE-25, VAC 30/30 and Bruce Moore Dual Mono 70 come immediately to mind). I can only say that horn speakers are forward and very revealing, and Heritage especially can be somewhat brash -- and because of this tend to sound subjectively more pleasing with lower power offerings from either camp. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

SS amps sound very alike to me as well as digital amps (have not heard the pricey ones though). Modern tube integrateds as Dean descibed i find very uninspiring. Old poorly rebuilt (Mapleshade) or stock vintage amps can sound very bad with rolled off highs and bloomy bass. I am addicted to good tubes for 2 channel.

For vintage Eico makes better separates than integrateds, Dynaco made better power amps than integrateds or preamps. Not too much experience with Fisher but generally good sounding, I did hear one really nice power amp. Scott makes everything good! Of course I have had the luxury of hearing them all NOS Valves rebuilt during my occasioanl visits to "The Lab" while he is doing a final listeneing test before shipping.

Most of my listening is now as loud as I can still carry on a conversation. SPL does not make music sound better but it is a good stress releiver at times. Pretty loud in a 14 x 22 room with the Belles on the short wall. Even with only 3 walls and rear wall center 25 % open (odd look through to the dining room from the living room but it works well for minimizing reflections) I can overdrive the room with VRD in triode before the amp clips with CD input with excellent bass slam and definition. Probably dozens of tube amp pretenders cannot reach that performance.

It is not a what are you missing question. It is a what do you want to discover question coupled with your investment limitations.

IMHO every horn speaker fanatic should own one well rebuilt vintage integrated for at least 6 months to get a feel for the tube experience.

[Audio Flynn]

1. I am pretty certain that PWK was not an audiophile. So, if you are also not an audiophile, get whatever he had and feel "comforted" that he would approve. If you are an audiophile, what the heck's the difference what he had?

2. Obviously "tubes" are the "reference sound" in today's world. Otherwise, people would not be forever saying, "This SS amp is so good it sounds like tubes." So again, just get a tube amp and be done with it. When do you ever hear people say, "This tube amp is so good it almost sound like SS?"

3. You will gain a lot of mental knowledge about tubes by reading a jillion guys talking about it, but all the mental knowledge in the world is not worth 2 minutes of actual LISTENING to it. The value to be found here is in the actual experience, not the knowledge. Go hear some amps.

Clear and concise.

Fair and balanced.[]

[Islander]

I am pretty certain that PWK was not an audiophile.

Perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean, Mark, but that seems an odd statement. PWK devoted most of his life to designing and developing speakers that would reproduce music as accurately and realistically as possible. Wouldn't that make him very much an audiophile, or are you using the term in a different sense altogether?

[mike stehr]

I'll agree with Mark, Klipsch wasn't a audiophile. He was a speaker builder/inventor/business man....I would guess....AE....

Audiophiles are ones who use tice clocks, mapingo dots, rocks, roll tubes 24/7, buy 0 awg welding cables for speaker wire and raise them off the floor with who knows what, mortgage the house for some "interconnects" (patch cords), and generally listen to their gear over the music....(I'm guilty of that)........ You know, the kind of people that PWK would have stuffed his BS badge in their faces.

[Islander]

Okay, that makes sense. PWK certainly was no "audiophool".

[Don Richard]

2. Obviously "tubes" are the "reference sound" in today's world. Otherwise, people would not be forever saying, "This SS amp is so good it sounds like tubes." So again, just get a tube amp and be done with it. When do you ever hear people say, "This tube amp is so good it almost sound like SS?"

The "reference sound" in today's world is what is found in the recording and mastering studios. I haven't seen, ever, a vacuum tube amplifier hooked to a pair of studio monitors in a professional studio. They were all discarded by the mid '70s in favor of SS. Vacuum tube preamps are used today in some studios to add "warmth" to primarily vocals but also some instruments. Most studios use Bryston and other SS amps, or the amps in their powered monitors, also SS. The rest of your statements may have applied in the '60s and '70s, but today good SS amps are very, very good. Have you heard a Krell class A SS amp yet?

The value to be found here is in the actual experience, not the knowledge. Go hear some amps.

Correct. Only the listener can make the best decision.

[oldtimer]

I could be wrong.

You? Nah. Not usually anyway. [8-|]

[Don Richard]

I think the home audio enthusiast, or sometimes called "audiophile" is in a totally different world than what you describe in the studio.

Those who reference anything but the original sound when assessing a reproduction system's sound qualities are defininitely in a different world. For most recordings done today, the "original performance" exists when the engineers mix tracks of individually recorded instruments together. This is the case because the individual tracks were not recorded at the same time, so there was no original performance, per se, until mixdown. It's my guess that about 90% of modern recordings are made that way (I'm being conservative here).

I've heard near-field monitors (Genelec) recently. My Khorns were similar in tonal balance and clarity to the monitors, except the Khorns had more palpable bass. I have also recently heard Spendor mini-monitors, powered by Audio Research tube gear. These are designed after the BBC studio monitor speakers, and are well regarded in audiophile circles and marketed for home use. I liked the sound that I heard but they ain't Khorns. Playing pipe organ music through Khorns sounds frighteningly real. The little Spendors can't get that loud or go that low. Neither would a 10 watt tube amp on Khorns.

[Don Richard]

Khorns don't even HAVE deep bass compared to many other speakers you could buy,

I said "my Khorns". I have measured them flat to 25 hz. They are modified, and I have yet to hear anything that equals them for the combination of sheer SPL output, low distortion, and transient reproduction in the bass range. I played a test CD with sine wave tracks that went down to 10 hz. 20 hz was inaudible to me although the SPL meter was reading 80 dB, about 10 dB down. 15 hz dropped the SPL to about 70 dB so I cranked it up to 85 dB. EVERYTHING in the house was rattling - dishes, windows, silverware, everything. I could have turned it up more but decided not to. What other single loudspeaker for home use does this?

[oscarsear]

I went to tubes and found that tubes allow or require the user to tweak them by rolling tubes, etc... In other words tube systems are more flexible to the user. But doing so ain't cheap. Good tubes cost a lot and they will eventually burn out. I had bad luck with tubes. They toasted out routinely and that ticked me and the spouse off. So I went to the high end SS and never looked back. I'm running an Accuphase E530 and it has zero, zilch, nada problems. Turn it on and keep it dusted. 30 watts of class A SS per channel and I'd be happy to challenge any tube listener.

[Audio Flynn]

Khorns don't even HAVE deep bass compared to many other speakers you could buy,

I said "my Khorns". I have measured them flat to 25 hz. They are modified, and I have yet to hear anything that equals them for the combination of sheer SPL output, low distortion, and transient reproduction in the bass range. I played a test CD with sine wave tracks that went down to 10 hz. 20 hz was inaudible to me although the SPL meter was reading 80 dB, about 10 dB down. 15 hz dropped the SPL to about 70 dB so I cranked it up to 85 dB. EVERYTHING in the house was rattling - dishes, windows, silverware, everything. I could have turned it up more but decided not to. What other single loudspeaker for home use does this?

Couple of thoughts...

=> Pretty cool!

=> I make my wife read these posts. They make me seem less obsessive compulsive.

=> K Horn as home earthquake simulator is a new application.

[Guest " "]

studio grade tube amps...kids...don't try this at home.

http://www.samash.com/catalog/showitem.asp?ItemPos=4&TempID=5&STRID=212352&Method=2&CategoryID=0&BrandID=0&PriceRangeID=0&PageNum=0&DepartmentID=0&pagesize=10&SortMethod=3&SearchPhrase=manley&Contains=%2Amanley%2A&Search_Type=SEARCH&GroupCode=

[kev313]

studio grade tube amps...kids...don't try this at home.

http://www.samash.com/catalog/showitem.asp?ItemPos=4&TempID=5&STRID=212352&Method=2&CategoryID=0&BrandID=0&PriceRangeID=0&PageNum=0&DepartmentID=0&pagesize=10&SortMethod=3&SearchPhrase=manley&Contains=%2Amanley%2A&Search_Type=SEARCH&GroupCode=

Wha???...Manley,that, that, what is the word that has been tossed about? Oh yeah, Manley the "audiophool" gear maker also makes STUDIO gear? Yes. Yes, I believe they do.