difference in sound when good capacitors go bad..........

[mark electro]

I have read many posts here about changing out capacitors because of age and increased ESR.

My question: What differences in sound will I hear; that would indicate that it is time to change capacitors?

Also if capacitors are bad: Am I in danger of damaging my high frequency drivers?

Once again thank you to all members of the Klipsch forum for continually expanding my knowlege base.

Mark

[sean5340]

It's hard to say what they sound like before you change them. I was really happy with the sound before the switch but noticed a considerable improvement after. It seems the soundstage and separation improved resulting in a more detailed sound.

[mark electro]

Did you happen to do an A/B test between the old caps and new?

[JJkizak]

Caps that are 20 years old will have a lot of degradation. In older speakers the difference in performance will be astounding. If you get the new networks from Crites/Dean they will perform even better as the design and components they use are far superior to the older components. I didn't need an A/B test with mine as the difference was so pronounced. In fact if you want my old networks you can have them for the cost of shipping. They are very good boat anchors.

JJK

[Islander]

It's hard to say what they sound like before you change them. I was really happy with the sound before the switch but noticed a considerable improvement after. It seems the soundstage and separation improved resulting in a more detailed sound.

That's the same impression I got when I replaced the caps in my La Scalas with Sonicaps from Bob Crites. The clarity also seemed to improve. The changes were quite noticeable and all good.

[Daddy Dee]

I started out with '77 lascalas a few years back. They sounded harsh before the crossovers were refreshed.

There were some interesting demonstrations of this issue at a Hope gathering in '04, I think. I had a Heresy system set up in the hospitality area of the Holiday Inn Express. The sound was very good, of course. These 70's vintage speakers had fresh crossovers. Through out the evening people brought in all kinds of gear swapping all kind of stuff in and out of the system. One forum member brought in some similar vintage Heresies he'd hooked up in the back seat of his car for the trip. They were of the same vintage and there was a noticeable difference in comparison. They sounded OK, but the others sounded great.

Same thing with a pair of Cornwalls a member brought from Kentucky. Bob and Michael Crites brought a new pair of crossovers for a demo. Michael opened one of the CW's and swapped crossovers. The CW owner and the gathering were all wowed by the improvement. The Crites' didn't get to take them home. The CW owner bought the new crossovers on the spot.

[sean5340]

Did you happen to do an A/B test between the old caps and new?

No I didn't but I am certain of the improvement. Although subtle, quite pleasing and noticable. I began listening to more genres of music and looking for very good recordings. One of the biggest differences is how noticable poorly recorded music is.

Sean

[mark electro]

I am thinking that I should upgrade my caps, however I am still hearing a big difference between poorly recorded music vs. well produced.

Also my soundstage is absolutly captivating and very detailed; with a fairly wide sweet spot.

Is it possable that I have just got a lucky break with my caps?

The caps have to be bad; right?????????????

[Islander]

The caps have to be bad; right?????????????

If they're over 15 or 20 years old, they're certainly no longer at their best, although they're still operational. No need to get in a panic about replacing your caps. I waited 4 months before replacing the caps in my 32-year-old La Scalas, since the speakers sounded okay to me. They definitely sounded better after re-capping, though.

[Daddy Dee]

Well, it is entirely possible to replace the caps on the crossover and return it to original if you don't prefer the sound. The caps aren't all that expensive.

[Jeff Matthews]

I don't know what you mean exactly by A/B. As soon as I changed them on mine, it was vastly improved in the high range. Much more detailed, crisp and high. If you are looking for an improvement in the way mediocre recordings (read that as meaning "80% or more of your favorite classic rock") sound, then, you will get an improvement in the high end (as you should), but that seeming "shallow" sound may never go away. There are many comments about how the high efficiency of KHorns make people start searching for, and appreciating, top quality production much more.

EDIT: I assumed KHorns. You did not say which model you have. The "shallow" sound attributable to KHorns was never a problem on my Cornwalls. I am sure much has to do with the quite smaller mid-range horn.

[Daddy Dee]

Yep a/b is the fun part. Freshen up one crossover and hear what it sound like next to the original.

[PrestonTom]

Let me chime in with the minority report.

Last year I refreshed the caps on a pair of 1982 AA crossovers. I used Solen caps (2 paralleled to get the original value & to lower some ESR), removed the diode protection, and cleaned up all the contacts. The cost was less than $25 and took about two hours.

The improvement was "noticeable". There was more energy in the higher ranges. If someone referred to this as more "clarity" or "detail" or "crispness", then I would agree, although these words may mean different things to different people.

However, in my case (24 year old networks) I would not use words like "dramatic" or "lifting the veil", or "night and day different". Nor would I refer to things like "sound stage" or "imaging" or "tightening up the bass". The physics behind those issues are not really affected by an upgrade in caps.

Some of the upgrades mentioned in previous posts are not necessarily simple cap replacements. They involve an actual re-design, so the nature of the changes or improvements could of course differ from my experience.

My comments are not meant to discourage folks. They are simply meant to manage some expectations. In my experience however, I thought the improvement that I got for only $25 was certainly worth doing. There is no question about that.

There are other crossover upgrades available and some of them are expensive. If those are pursued, then my suggestion would be to look at the total cabinet as a system, and learn about some crossover fundamentals. There could be great merit in performing a significant re-design that included time alignment and the use of steep filters. But if you are going that way, you will now be in the realm of electronic crossovers (which do provide steep filters and time alignment) and bi-amping which can also provide other benefits. But now we are talking about some significant re-design issues which can result in some significant benefits. It is so much more than throwing money at fancy caps.

This degree of re-design has been done by others and it is probably worth searching the threads and reading up on things. Please remember that you will have better luck mimicking a proven "re-design" that was successfully done before. Setting up a crossover, requires some measurement capabilities that most of do not have. Although it may be fine-tuned by ear, the fundamental issues of crossover points, filter selection, time alignment, gain etc are done by physical measures and not by ear.

Again these are simply my opinions. I would be happy to explain some of my assertions but I am not interested in arguing about them.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[mark electro]

. I would be happy to explain some of my assertions

Tom,

Maybe you could explain some (I won't argue). Also If you know of a few threads of interest?

I was kind of thinking about AudioCap Thetas; However, I kind of like the thought of bi- amping and steep crossovers in a proven design.

That is a concept that I haven't thought about with klipsch speakers.

[mark electro]

Yep a/b is the fun part. Freshen up one crossover and hear what it sound like next to the original.

I definatly agree Daddy Dee

[DrWho]

Let me chime in with the minority report.

Last year I refreshed the caps on a pair of 1982 AA crossovers. I used Solen caps (2 paralleled to get the original value & to lower some ESR), removed the diode protection, and cleaned up all the contacts. The cost was less than $25 and took about two hours.

The improvement was "noticeable". There was more energy in the higher ranges. If someone referred to this as more "clarity" or "detail" or "crispness", then I would agree, although these words may mean different things to different people.

However, in my case (24 year old networks) I would not use words like "dramatic" or "lifting the veil", or "night and day different". Nor would I refer to things like "sound stage" or "imaging" or "tightening up the bass". The physics behind those issues are not really affected by an upgrade in caps.

That has also been my experience [Y]

There are other crossover upgrades available and some of them are expensive. If those are pursued, then my suggestion would be to look at the total cabinet as a system, and learn about some crossover fundamentals. There could be great merit in performing a significant re-design that included time alignment and the use of steep filters. But if you are going that way, you will now be in the realm of electronic crossovers (which do provide steep filters and time alignment) and bi-amping which can also provide other benefits. But now we are talking about some significant re-design issues which can result in some significant benefits. It is so much more than throwing money at fancy caps.

For what it's worth, there might be some different degredations to the sound if you go the active route, but like all things, if you're careful you can minimize them. For me, the compromise seems very small...especially when you discover just how bad passive crossovers really are (even with the fanciest of components).

Getting back to the concerns of what is audible...

An active xover won't fix all your problems. What it allows is better cohesion between the various drivers...so naturally you will notice the biggest difference near the crossover frequencies. For me, the most obvious thing to differentiate between an active and passive system is the sound of a snare hit. You will notice a distinct blurring of the snare when you don't have time alignment. Other things like flutes or chimes or anything with fundamentals right around a crossover frequency might sound diffused, or might move around in the sound stage depending on what note they're playing.

You can also get a flatter frequency response with an active xover, not to mention much lower distortion from your drivers too (since each driver will be directly coupled to an amp instead of having a xover in the middle). Dynamic sounds will have more oomph to them and voices will sound smoother/more real. Another benefit, although not usually pertainent to a single audiophile, is that an active xover can allow for more consistent behavior across multiple listening positions. A consequence of that polar control, however, is that your reverberant field in your room will have a more consistent behavior across each frequency...to the point that you'll probably notice an improvement in what might be perceived as the room's acoustics...basically you're just loading the room better. Sometimes, with passives, the polars get redirected in order to achieve a flat on-axis response, which in turn can be heard in the reverb of the room...

[Deang]

You can't biamp a three-way speaker -- you need to triamp. So you need three amplifiers, along with the processor to apply the crossover and EQ parameters. Those parameters are derived from the data accumulated after careful measuring, using instruments a majority aren't in possession of -- and wouldn't know how to use and/or intrepret the data correctly without some training. Hobbyists, or "audio enthusiasts" are not electrical or acoustic engineers. Without a way to test and verify, there is simply no way to know when it's right. Properly designed passives sound every bit as good, and in some cases -- better. Related but unrelated, with the majority of commercial recordings, less revealing can also mean more musical or listenable, and who wants to build a case against that?

In the case of old Heritage, many of those caps are exhibiting breakdown of the dielectric, and this causes the resistive element to climb -- causing a reduction in the signal and reduces sensitivity of the speaker. Before a cap replacement, the highs will sound muffled and/or subdued, and the midrange sounds a little dirty. What most notice after a capacitor changeout is increased tweeter output, though if they're paying attention they should also notice not having to turn the attenuator on their preamp as high to get the same perceived volume level (as previous). The second thing they notice is a much cleaner presentation. You don't need an A/B test to notice any of this.

Sorry Tom, but it effects imaging and soundstaging in a big way. Maybe you shouldn't have used those crappy Solens.

[ClaudeJ1]

You can't biamp a three-way speaker -- you need to triamp. So you need three amplifiers, along with the processor to apply the crossover and EQ parameters. Those parameters are derived from the data accumulated after careful measuring, using instruments a majority aren't in possession of -- and wouldn't know how to use and/or intrepret the data correctly without some training.

You can if you choose to have both passive and active in the same speaker, but you will have to match the active ones to the passive one, somehow. I have done it with a JBL 2404 with a self-contained 3rd order 6K highpass with Zobel. You can then adjust the levels of the mid and woofer amplifiers realtive to the intensity it produces. But, you are correct. Attempting this without instruments will not yield optimum resuslts and waste months of time.

[mark1101]

I recapped 5 pairs of Heritage speakers. Khorns, Lascalas, corns, 2 pairs heresys, and some singles. I found I got different levels of improvement on all of them. The oldest were my '73 corns and those gained a ton of improvement on the top end and midrange just as Dean describes above. I recapped a 1990 pair of Lascalas and got a marginal improvement if any........telling me that the original caps were probably still OK.

I would agree with the others above that getting involved with active crossovers and multiple amps is not only an expensive and complicated alternative, it may send you backwards depending on what you are looking for in sound quality. I agree with Dean that passive networks can sound as good (and I'll add even better) than some active solutions, though they aren't as technically correct. If you are looking for audiophile micro detail and dynamics such as what you can get from good tube and s/s home audio offerings using passive networks, you may find them hard to beat using the required pro audio DSP devices required for biamping.

[Islander]

I would agree with the others above that getting involved with active crossovers and multiple amps is not only an expensive and complicated alternative, it may send you backwards depending on what you are looking for in sound quality. I agree with Dean that passive networks can sound as good (and I'll add even better) than some active solutions, though they aren't as technically correct. If you are looking for audiophile micro detail and dynamics such as what you can get from good tube and s/s home audio offerings using passive networks, you may find them hard to beat using the required pro audio DSP devices required for biamping.

Active bi-amping is certainly expensive and complicated, but it can be done on a budget if you can find the necessary components at affordable prices. With my system, the changes were unmistakable and were real improvements, although using tweeters of a design that's probably 30 years newer than the K400/K-55V and K-77 combo must have been a definite contributing factor.

However, I had the benefit of Roy Delgado's lab-tested settings (Thanks, Roy!). Trying to dial in a complex system like this by ear or with typical home-type instruments could have been frustrating and unproductive.