Palladiums versus Klipschorns on classical music?

[DTLongo]

I wanted to pick up on an earlier post where it was suggested ( I don't recall by whom) that after first putting Beethoven's 9th Symphony on his new Palladium 39F's, it wasn't until he moved to more pop-rock-movie music that the Palladiums really came into their own and blew him away. That has been my experience with Klipschorns, too. About four years ago GaryMD came over to hear my then-new 2003 Khorns. He brought a little Fisher 10 wpc tube amp and we spent the first day listening to pop/rock, and the Khorns sounded phenomenal. The next morning I powered them up with the same amp on classical symphonic music, and the impact was not nearly as dramatic. Ergo, I concluded, classical (symphonic) music is in its nature more diffuse, distant from the microphones, and otherwise enough different from rock/pop/country such that the impact of even superb speakers is subjectively less with classical than with the latter.

That said, the Khorns still soar with a WELL-recorded classical piece of music as I'm sure the Palladiums do, too. "Horsepower counts" even with seemingly staid classical. I caught a recording of Beethoven's 5th Piano Concerto on local public FM radio the other day. That piece's first movement features the solo nine-foot concert grand piano pushed to its fortissimo max against the full forte orchestra. On my Khorn + Belle array one could SENSE that pianist pouring his or her full weight into that keyboard against the orchestra. The very room air was electric.

And so I would imagine would be the case with Palladiums. But I would be really interested in an A-B comparison of Khorns with Palladiums someday by some audiophile closely familiar with both classical and pop music.

[DrWho]

I actually think the Khorns sound better with classical music than they do with modern music... []

[damonrpayne]

DTLongo:

I think my comments are being taken out of context:

My recording of Beethoven's 9th is not very good, and I instantly found that these speakers are very detailed and less forgiving of a bad recording than the speakers they replaced. My Steely Dan recordings ARE very good and so of course blew me away. My Paganini, The Planets, Grieg, Einhorn, and others ARE good, and also blow me away. Its a lot of fun to feel the air hitting your pants legs when Mars arrives []

I think I have mentioned that I have done a demo of the 60th anniversery K-horns vs. the P-39F in the same room with the same electronics, same music. The demo material was some of Mark Kaufman's stuff (not classical), "Voices of Light" (baroque-style, vocals, super nice), Pagannini "21 caprici", Tori Amos, Soundgarden, Stevie Ray Vaughn. I am really in the "still building my collection" phase of classical appreciation, but I felt the P-39F was worth the extra $$ given the few pieces I listened to. I do find that I need to turn it up louder due to the sensitivity difference, but my amps are 300wpc into 4ohms so that's OK.

[Coytee]

but my amps are 300wpc into 4ohms so that's OK.

[Y]

[Mallette]

I wish I were closer so I could hear the Palladiums. In my case, it is hard to imagine a response. My K'horns are accurate. That is about all I expect. I can imagine "different," but not much more accurate. Even with them I need a sub to get those lowest organ tones.

I am still fully with PWK in the idea that horns are best for most things, acoustic instruments in particular. Not that you can't obtain similar or even better performance with other methods...but it will cost more.

Dave

[garymd]

Its always been my experience that it is much more difficult to build a system that makes classical music sound good vs just about any other music. Larry C. built his system around classical and it does a wonderful job. Still, I wouldn't trade with him (except to sell his gear, buy mine back and pocket a bunch of excess cash[]) since I play more jazz and rock, the music my system was designed around. It takes a really great classical recording to bring out the best in my Khorns. My Cornwalls on the other hand seem to sound good with just about any type of music or recording. I don't know if Palladiums will react the same way but I know it's really hard to compare Khorns to just about any other speakers because of their sensitivity to recording quality and good sources.

[DrWho]

...it's really hard to compare Khorns to just about any other speakers because of their sensitivity to recording quality and good sources.

I would phrase that slightly differently....it's hard to find quality recordings that don't excite the problematic areas in the Khorn.

In other words, the Khorn is not perfect and there are quality recordings that will sound bad on them because of the imperfections. And that's not to knock the Khorn - every speaker has its weaknesses. It's just hard to notice until you hear the same music on speakers with less imperfections...

[Mallette]

>In other words, the Khorn is not perfect and there are quality
recordings that will sound bad on them because of the imperfections.

Recommendations? I've yet to hear a QUALITY recording that did not sound it's best on a K'horn.

Dave

[garymd]

>In other words, the Khorn is not perfect and there are quality recordings that will sound bad on them because of the imperfections.

Recommendations? I've yet to hear a QUALITY recording that did not sound it's best on a K'horn.

Dave

AMEN! I couldn't agree more. I'm not sure what Doc has against the Khorn but he isn't shy about letting us know his feelings. Nothing personal. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Mallette]

>In other words, the Stradivarius is not perfect and there are
quality compositions that will sound bad on them because of the
imperfections.

[]

That is what I was actually thinking... Maybe a bit of an overstatement, but pretty much my feelings about them big 'ol horns with a little bit of PWK in every one!

Dave

[DrWho]

I'm just saying so many people are so quick to blame the recordings. How often do we hear "Khorns are so revealing that poor source material sounds bad on them" ??? I'm just saying that some (not all) of that is the speaker and not the source material.

Let me see if I can dig up a really good example of a recording that goes from blah to sweet. I store all my music on my computer and am in the process of getting my desktop back up and running so it will be a bit for me to job my memory (I've never been good at remembering songs by name....just which CD and track number). But off the top of my head, I think Cirque du Soleil did a number called "Stella" from one of their shows...probably not y'alls cup of tea (especially in recording style), but it ain't too exciting on khorns...I'm sure it would rock on the Pals though.

But to get back to my point....the tradeoffs in the khorn are very accepting of classical music. In fact, it's no secret that PWK was a very avid listener of classical and intentionally voiced his speakers that way. Bust out pretty much anything with electric guitar and it's gonna have way too much throat and be all crazy congested. Swap over to a better bass bin and now your guitar has its rhythm back without the mud flying onto the drummer's snare. I also think female vocals and especially strings sound more natural with a tractrix, but brass is more rich sounding on the exponential horns...

[jdm56]

The essential problem, it seems to me, is that any given speaker system radiates sound the same way all the time at any given frequency. Whereas on the other hand, music, and especially non-amplified music, can literally be all over the place...at the same time. So it's impossible for any speaker to be right all the time in it's radiation pattern. And if you really enjoy many types of music, like I do, this problem is especially irksome. Do I buy horns because they rock so well, or do I buy 'stats because they reproduce acoustic music so convincingly?

I would expect Palladiums to be more "natural" sounding with classical or any other acoustic music simply because, as has already been stated, they're less horny.[]

[Islander]

A speaker can have quirks that only show up with certain music or certain recordings. My La Scalas sounded pretty good with everything I played through them, until I put on The Strat Pack Live DVD. I was convinced the drums were mixed too loud and it was annoying to listen to. However, when I did the JubScala conversion, the LS mid-bass hump was EQ'd out and the drums sounded correct.

I had no idea that unevenness in the frequency response was even there until I played that DVD.

Palladiums, being a much newer design, likely have fewer lumps and bumps in their response than Khorns, good as Khorns may sound.

[colterphoto1]

Properly set up in a room, Klipschorns will smoke a Palladium.

[J.4knee]

I think on some material a LS with a good sub can best a Khorn.....having said that though if I had to choose just one speaker, without any augmentation, as my sole choice it would be the Klipschorn. I might be covniced to select the KH Jubilee but I have never had the priviledge of hearing a pair. I've not heard the Pals either and given the scareceness of availability of the latter two, I may never get to audition either.[]

[Coytee]

I may never get to audition either

Well, if you ever find yourself mindlessly meandering through Tennessee.....

[pi]

[j-malotky]

One thing to keep in mind. Pauls herritage speakers were made with low cost drivers that Paul made made sound great. The Ps drivers were designed to do a specific job. They sound very different IMO.

The Ps sound like an exact surgical instrument. Very flat even responce and very detailed. The Khorns have a large presence sound that the Ps do not.

I think my friend Vinces put it in good words back in Indy. He said the when he went up stairs to the Heritage room as he walked down the hall it sounded like a live band was playing in the conference room. That large sound or presense is what you do not get with the Ps

I love the sound of the Ps. I have heard things on Damons Ps in music that I had not previously heard on my Khorns. Remember that my Khorns are in a room designed for Khorns. I would also add that Damons Ps sound better than what I remember hearing in Indy.

The Ps are nice.....But it would have a real hard time giving up that Khorn presence I am use to.

So yes, they are very differnt sounding.

JM

[bhendrix]

The Jubilees do it ALL - presence, detail, dynamics.

[LarryC]

On the original topic, how does classical music sound on Jubes? I don't recall ever hearing it in Hope demos, which I always thought was a limitation on those. I myself find it hard to come to a conclusion about a speaker without hearing something classical on it.

My belief is that it should be included in evaluating speakers under development. I thought the Palladiums did very well on realism and accuracy, though I, too, prefer hearing classical on a good K-horn setup. John's comments are right on target IMO.

[ClaudeJ1]

I think on some material a LS with a good sub can best a Khorn.....having said that though if I had to choose just one speaker, without any augmentation, as my sole choice it would be the Klipschorn. I might be covniced to select the KH Jubilee but I have never had the priviledge of hearing a pair. I've not heard the Pals either and given the scareceness of availability of the latter two, I may never get to audition either.

I agree 100% with your first statement. I had Khorns for 30 years (La Scala in the middle channel with resistor box mono), and when I went to LaScalas with subs, the sound was even better.............after all, it's the same treble section from 400 Hz on up, but you can aim the LaScalas easier than Khorns, which is impossible without building and attaching false corners first.